Did the Rocket's make the playoffs this year? Cause I could've sworn we drafted some guys after the first 13 picks. Maybe I'm imagining things, but don't you think its entirely possible the Clippers got that pick in a trade? I mean, its far fetched, but weirder things have happened.
So Cato isn't an underachiever because of where he was picked, yet Mo Taylor is?! 1997 NBA Draft 1. Tim Duncan 2. Keith Van Horn 3. Chauncey Billups 4. Antonio Daniels 5. Tony Battie 6. Ron Mercer 7. Tim Thomas 8. Adonal Foyle 9. Tracy McGrady 10. Danny Fortson 11. don't remember 12. don't remember 13. Derek Anderson 14. Maurice Taylor 15. Kelvin Cato
What does it matter what PF's can put the ball on the floor or what great skills Mo has? The only thing that matters is production. If this were an offensive skills contest Shaq would be out in the first round. Would you like to compare Mo's offensive skills to Shaq's offensive skills and then tell me Mo's a better offensive player? Mo's numbers at their highest were 17.1 pts/game on the Clippers where he could shoot whenever he wanted to. If Mo is exceptional at anything it's getting people to believe there is more there than there really is. You know I remember a guy named Tony Campbell who used to play for the lottery bound T-Wolves and he averaged like 20 points a game one year, maybe for 2 years, and I think he was actually put on an all-star team once. Nobody thought he was exceptional, except for T-Wolves fans maybe, and when he finally went to the Lakers, he took his rightful place on the bench where he belonged and he was never heard from again.
Francis 3 I like that, but personally I think both are underacheivers. I was looking for my tape of the draft in 97 but couldn't find it
Why are we comparing Shaq and Taylor? Shaq is a star player, and is the most dominant player in the game - Maurice Taylor is a very good complementary player. His production is entirely dependent upon opportunity, and as a complementary player, his production was excellent.
My college coach once said, if you don't get the ball, go get it. He didn't mean go get it out of the point guards hands, he meant crash the glasses. If Taylor wants or deserves more shots, there are plenty missed shots to go around.
First of all, I don't see what is wrong with 17.1 pts a game, especially in just his 3rd season. Secondly, it's not like Mo jacks up shots like crazy to get his points. He has always had a very good field goal percentage. Last year - .489 (17th in the league!). Also, many seem to forget that he is only 25 (to turn 26 on the 30th) and still improving his game. So he isn't as dominating as Shaq and many others...so what, that just means he doesn't play much of a power game. He is still an "exceptional" offensive power forward, in that he has excellent range and outside moves versus other power forwards. Antoine Walker comes to mind as another power forward like Mo. Antoine isn't an dominating powerful inside player either. He is still an all-star caliber player. The only difference is Antoine scores about 7 more points a game than Mo (while taking around 1.5 times the shots Mo does), and average just 3 more rebounds and about 4 more assists than Mo.
Taylor's supporters here frequently mention all of these supposed skills that Taylor has. I'm simply showing that skills, real or imagined, don't necessarily have a tremendous effect on productivity. You can say Mo Taylor is an exceptional offensive player and then I can point out Ruben Patterson scored just as many points as Mo Taylor last season. Ruben Patterson has an atrocious jump shot and nobody in their right mind would call him an exceptional offensive player. If Ruben could stop raping babysitters and had a better agent, he could probably be a $6 million/year complimentary player.
There is nothing wrong with 17.1 points a game but that's certainly not exceptional, that's not even all-star caliber. He hasn't always had a very good field goal percentage. His % last year was .025% more than the previous season. He's an exceptionally offensive power forward maybe... Hey if Mobley averaged just 7 more points a game, and averaged 2.5 more rebounds a game, and averaged 2.1 more assists a game he would be just as good as Tracy McGrady. Just think how good our team would be with Antoine Walker, Tracy McGrady, and Steve Francis!!!
I agree timing. If he was such an effective scorer more plays would be ran for him. If he could get as high percentage shot as Cat, Rudy would run plays for him, plain and simple. Everyone amazes at his ball handling, but he had more turnovers than assist. How many times did they call carry on that slow crossover? Out of all the teams in the west, if thomas were starting, he would be 3 rd from the bottom.
I like our team more now than going in with Taylor at the 4 and Collier and Cato at the 5. Griffin and Willis gives us something that we need. I hope Griffin picks up that jump hook.
<i>On defense, EG is probably quicker than Mo, so you could have him defend the perimeter, and Mo defend on the inside. EG on this end would serve a similar role to what Shareef did when he played SF for the Grizzlies. 'd like for someone eo explan how this wouldn't work out. One forward has a brilliant interior game, including scoring and rebounding, and can block shots like crazy. The other is brilliant at creating for himself and teammates from the perimeter, can pass well, and can shoot from the outside. How can these two players not compliment each other? </i> If Eddie Griffin is defending on the perimeter, as you suggest, then he's not going to have much opportunity to block shots or rebound. Seems like a waste of his abiliities to me. Wouldn't you want Griffin as close to the basket as possible on defense in order to best utilize his talents? I also find it interesting that you say that Taylor can pass well or creates for teammates. If he was brilliant at creating for teammates, as you say, wouldn't he have averaged more than 1.5 assists/game last year? After four years, a career high of 5 assists isn't too indicitive of a good passer. Even Big Country Reeves has had a 7 assist game.
If Eddie Griffin is defending on the perimeter, as you suggest, then he's not going to have much opportunity to block shots or rebound. Shareef Abdur-Rahim did a pretty fine job of rebounding from the SF spot in Vancouver. Also, EG's main strength in shotblocking is as a weak side shotblocker (for now), which he can still do from the 3 spot. If he becomes more than a weakside shotblocker, and can actually wait down low and send it back, then we can deal with it when the time comes. Also don't forget that Mo shed 20 pounds this summer, so it is not impossible for him to take some time on the perimeter as well. I also find it interesting that you say that Taylor can pass well or creates for teammates. If he was brilliant at creating for teammates, as you say, wouldn't he have averaged more than 1.5 assists/game last year? After four years, a career high of 5 assists isn't too indicitive of a good passer. Even Big Country Reeves has had a 7 assist game. Assists are not a very telling stat as to how good of a passer players are. There's no stat for players who set up the assist, or for players who find the open men but then have them miss the jumper. From what I saw last year, Mo had very good court vision when creating from the perimeter, and was good at both creating for himself and passing it around to find the open man. (if someone doubled) In addition, it's often hard for big men like Mo to get assists if they don't draw consistent double teams. Point guards get a lot of assists because they are setting up the plays. Webber gets a lot of assists because he draws constant double teams and has good vision, and teammates who cut to the basket. Even Big Country, when motivated, is big enough to where he can draw some double teams. I'd be willing to bet that in Big Country's 7 assist game, he had a fair amount of points too, and that the other team was double teaming him some. When Mo has good games, the defense is still very reluctant to double him, because of all the other good shooters the Rockets have, and also because we have two of the best isolation players in the game. Just because Mo doesn't get THE assist doesn't mean he can't pass or that he doesn't have quality court vision.
Cat, Taylor must have a clause in his contract for you to defend him so much. What do you see in Taylor? I mean, I'm not a big Kenny Thomas fan and I think he could put up the same numbers. I don't understand why we want so many jumpers launched from the perimeter. Willis is typical of big men in the 80's which is why I think basketball is lacking now. In the 80's and 90's big men played like big men. They roamed the paint, rebounded, and enforced their will on the game. Now these guys kill me because no one wants to bang, create shots for others and do the dirty work. So what Kevin Willis's jump hook doesn't look as great as a long jumper, but thats the reason that at age 39, he's still very effective. Nothing makes me cringe more than seeing Rasheed launch 3pters. I know he has a good stroke, but just imagine the kind of shots and foul opportunities he could get if he just rolled from block to block. Mailman didn't add his jumper till he hit 30, but he was so dominant down low that he would have 30 on 8 fg's made. Why cant our big men draw fouls and stuff for our guards? I mean its almost backwards now with guards playing more post than pf's or centers. When I look at what players are leading in ft att, mostly all i see are guards which it never used to be. For some reason, these are the only ones going to the rack. I'm not some fan stuck in the golden age of basketball in the 80's, I truly enjoy watching as much as I can. It just really makes me laugh when I see all these big guys wanting to show thier versitility instead of dominating the game. Thats what I love about Shaq, he like being a big man, and playing like one and until someone can half ass neutralize him, no one will win a championship. With that being said, I can't wait till the Rockets play tuesday.
<i> Shareef Abdur-Rahim did a pretty fine job of rebounding from the SF spot in Vancouver. Also, EG's main strength in shotblocking is as a weak side shotblocker (for now), which he can still do from the 3 spot. If he becomes more than a weakside shotblocker, and can actually wait down low and send it back, then we can deal with it when the time comes. Also don't forget that Mo shed 20 pounds this summer, so it is not impossible for him to take some time on the perimeter as well. </i> In case you didn't notice, Vancouver was never terribly successful with Abdur-Rahim as their top rebounder. Wasn't the knock on SAR that he never came up big when Vancouver needed it? As far as Griffin's shotblocking, weak side shotblocking is not the same thing as playing on the perimeter. Hakeem was a great weak side shot blocker, but he didn't play on the perimeter. If you had put him on the perimeter, then his numbers wouldn't have been very impressive. <i>Assists are not a very telling stat as to how good of a passer players are. There's no stat for players who set up the assist, or for players who find the open men but then have them miss the jumper. </i> What was Taylor setting up? Most of our assists came from either Francis, Mobley or Norris penetrating and passing or from Hakeem kicking the ball out. Who's assists did Taylor setup? Are you saying that Taylor is actually making good passes and guys just happen to miss the shot? Is he just incredibly unlucky? The same guys that were catching Hakeem's passes and hitting shots, miss everything that Taylor passes to them? You could make that argument for a game or so, but you're trying to tell me that he's been unlucky for 4 years? <i>In addition, it's often hard for big men like Mo to get assists if they don't draw consistent double teams. Point guards get a lot of assists because they are setting up the plays. Webber gets a lot of assists because he draws constant double teams and has good vision, and teammates who cut to the basket. Even Big Country, when motivated, is big enough to where he can draw some double teams. I'd be willing to bet that in Big Country's 7 assist game, he had a fair amount of points too, and that the other team was double teaming him some. When Mo has good games, the defense is still very reluctant to double him, because of all the other good shooters the Rockets have, and also because we have two of the best isolation players in the game. </i> Ok, let's look at guys that never get double teamed: Ben Wallace, 6 assists, Arron Williams 6 assists, Ervin Johnson 5 assists, Shawn Bradley 7 assists, Mutumbo 7 assists. Those guys are all terrible offensive players and they've managed to equal or better Taylor's career best. Even Chris Dudley has had a 4 assist game. If Taylor is surrounded by so many good shooters, wouldn't you expect him to be able to luck into more than 5 assists in a game? <i>Just because Mo doesn't get THE assist doesn't mean he can't pass or that he doesn't have quality court vision. </i> Can you name me another good passer in the NBA that only averages 1.5 assists per game? I'll agree that assist stats alone don't tell everything, but the almost total lack of assists on Taylor's part does say something.
Again, I dunno why... leegibez makes more sense to me than most of you. Maybe because he's played a lot of bball and continues to play? The Rockets don't want a team .... no team wants a team with huge depth with a ton of mediocre above average players except in cases of several injuries. Don't jam the PF and SF spots with tons if players... the object of any team is to win the finals and when it comes down to crunch time, 5 + 1 guy are usually going to get almost all the minutes. So fill each spot with people who will have the least liability and don't worry about the rest (to some degree). Franchise will match up any day, Griffin will become a total package, it's hard to find anyone better off the bench than willis taylor isn't the PF to deal with other PFs or the needs, Rice is old, Williams and Kenny need to show a next level... each of these guys should have a consideration of being let go 2 for 1, 3 for 2... whenever the opportunity presents itself because they sometimes wont accomplish the required need for a finals team. as for oscar, cato and tmo, they're either at thin spots and/or wait and see. sure, taylor and those rest have their merits, but they're taking up enough cash or enough minutes at their spots and aren't as quality as what we could get or what we got. we need a few stronger players at a few spots... we got enough depth. dump taylor, dump rice, dump taylor... get a C for them... francis cat griffin cato + traded C you usually just need 6-7 top contributers .. not 4 + 7 above mediocre
Nice of everyone to pile on him now that his achilles is busted. Mo was said to be in the best shape of his career, and we've got some Clutch quotes, Mo quotes, and Rudy quotes that say so. His shed 20 lbs. and added upper body strength. aelliott, Mo isn't KG, but he rarely was put in playmaking situations. Most of his time he was utilitzed as a spot up shooter. He got maybe 3 post up oppurtunities a game, because of the offense that was run. The offense led to a mediocre assist total for Francis. Fortunately for the Rockets, the way to win a basketball game is not by assists. I can also get you Carroll Dawson quotes where he went out of his way to say Mo is a good passer. Single game highs are fun stats, but more or less meaningless IMO. Would you say Dana Barros is a better scorer than Steve Francis? By the same token, should we praise Mo's rebounding prowess because he snagged 20 once? I can understand faulting Mo for being "soft" or a bad rebounder or whatever, but to deny that he is a gifted offensive player? If you want to go to tape, Mo received double teams when he posted up. That wasn't much of the Rockets offense. Mo had exceptional handles, and one of the best midrange shots in the game, and shot an incredible FG% based on where his shots came from. Individual rebounds are more and more meaningless, especially on a team with guards like Francis and Mobley. Look at our game vs. San Antonio. Francis ended up with 11 rebounds, and Willis-a guy who has consistently gotten 10+ in his career only had 4. Cato only had 5. Yet the Rockets won the rebound battle handily anyhow. We've seen that often Rudy has had the big men box out a man rather than battle for the board, and it has worked. Not to mention, Steve and Cat work well with him, Rudy likes him, he works hard, and has a positive attitude, as evidenced by his prediction he'll be back near the all-star break. I mean, I'm not a big Kenny Thomas fan and I think he could put up the same numbers. Whopdee doo, give him a cookie. Mo's contribution of hitting jumpers early which kept the defense honest on him, and allowed easier paint access for Steve/Cuttino. KT may be able to put up similar "numbers", but give me MoT over KT every day of the week. As for the MoT/Griffin conflict, either way if Cato pans out, we'll have a trio of solid big men under contract for the next 5 years. Mo played a lot at the 5 due to injury last year, and Griffin is playing some there as well. If/When Griffin bulks up, the question may answer itself. I think it'll depend on Mo and how he comes back. If his quickness is improved (achilles doesn't slow him, loss of weight/conditioning kicks in) it's possible we may see a 3/4 MoT/Griffin thing happen. If it's not good enough to hold SFs, my guess is a 4/5 combo.
Nike, I'm not jumping on him because he's injured and thats good he lost 20lbs this summer, but determination not weight makes you a better player. Some guys are physical works of art, but when its time to put it on the court, they're lost. Stregnth is just part of it. I never thought of Taylor as a very good player. i've watched him play for 3 yrs and he just don't have the natural abilities that you look for in a pf.Its a reason why we did good against the east and sucked against the west. The east has more perimeter players , so I think on the edges we match up very well, but when we get back to our conference and the opposing team is getting 12-15 fters and all we get is 24 fters, we wind up losing. Rice is an upgrade from Anderson/Williams , but if you ask gm's in the west which position is the 2nd strongest they would probably say small forward. As much of an advantage we have at the point position, it was negated by what we didn't get from the 4 position. Just think how many games we could have won if were not torched so much at that position. I'm not saying Eddie Can shut down some of the premier 4's, but he could at least slow them more than wha Taylor and Thomas could do and to me that helps us greatly.
man I think Mo tay is just good trade bait. heck i think t-mo will have just as good of a jumpshot in a couple years makin motay just plain... either keep kt or motay but one of them has gotta go...
