Rhester; I think I follow you here. You're saying that the human need for justice is the proof of a soul and also of an afterlife because our desire for justice is so strong that it must be something inherent in us beyond the physical. Further that desire is so strong that we inherently recognize that ultimate justice will be met when we shuffle off this mortal coil. Correct? Very interesting and very Platonic. The one thing I'm learning a lot from the D & D is just how closely Christian thought is to Platonic ideas. I remember hearing that early Christianity was influence by Plato I didn't realize how much. To get back on point though I would contend that the idea and desire for justice could come about without divine inspiration. A just society is generally a successful and stable society. As social beings our desire for justice could be a form of enlightened self-interest where we realize that without it things end up worse for us. For instance why I might want to steal I understand that I might get caught and get punished or worse if I steal and get away with it everyone else will steal because of the example I've set and we end up with anarchy. So I obey the rules of society to not steal and even internalize that view because I've been brought up with the belief of collective self-interest. This idea isn't without precedence and there have been anthropological studies that show that many social animals act according to a sense of justice and will punish members of a group who act out.
I'm pretty hard on religion when it comes to scientific issues but like I said in the Evolution threads. Faith and science are two different things and its a mistake to try to prove one with the means of the other. Yes scientifically we can't prove the existence of a soul or an afterlife and while Meowgi's Buddhist views might be closer there is no scientific explanation for things like Karma or even whether consciousness is an illusion. That doesn't mean that those things are without merit because as conscious beings I think we need faith. If we didn't have a consciousness we wouldn't fear death because only conscious beings can percieve the passage of time or the awareness of death itself. Yet for the vast majority of us we do fear death and faith helps us resolve that. Another reason IMO we need faith is purpose. Sorry to sound like Agent Smith but as rational beings we have an emotional and intellectual need for purpose. Biologically we are just gene delivery mechanisms but for most of us that isn't enough or else we wouldn't strive for such things like creating art. Science can explain how we came about but it can't explain if we came about for a purpose beyond distributing our genes. That can only be answered by faith.
I don't know what happens when people die Can't seem to grasp it as hard as I try It's like a song I can hear playing right in my ear That I can't sing I can't help listening And I can't help feeling stupid standing 'round Crying as they ease you down 'Cause I know that you'd rather we were dancing Dancing our sorrow away (Right on dancing) No matter what fate chooses to play (There's nothing you can do about it anyway) Just do the steps that you've been shown By everyone you've ever known Until the dance becomes your very own No matter how close to yours Another's steps have grown In the end there is one dance you'll do alone
Thank you SishirChang good to hear from you. Correct in essence. Actually I would like to respond to your posts with three thoughts- 1. From a Bible perspective one of God's most important characteristics is justice. For instance, in the end of this world injustices will be corrected. Justice is a very important character issue because so much depends upon it. For instance moral choices all ride on justice. For example- family relationship, business transactions, governments, and all human rights are based upon the human propensity to just-ness. If I have two children and I reject one and accept the other the immediate human effect will be an injustice. If I agree to sell you a product for a price and I change the terms or contract without mutual consent there will immediately be a sense of injustice etc, etc- Justice is ingrained in man because justice is a character attribute of God. Most sins in human relationship are on the foundation of justice- Murder, Adultery, Theft, Betrayal, Jealousy etc. If a person doesnot understand that most of God's justice is reserved to a time after death then the perception will be that God does not care about the mass of injustice in the world. But if we understand that God is perfectly just and in the end He will perfectly and with unbias judge every human thought, attitude, motive, word and action then we can have assurance that right and justice prevails for mankind. God gave His laws not just so that man would obey but to set the standard for just judgment. The moral laws (Ten Commandments) are like a mirror for our soul; by them we can know if our choices are right or wrong. 2. The human need for justice is incredibly strong. Every pain, suffering and wrong in the world today can be traced back to a violation of just treatment or just controls. For example I cannot choose to be born in a wealthy nation like America or a poor nation like Bangladesh. There are basic injustices that would seem to indicate that God is not just. However God reserves final justice to after life simply because there is great value in a person's response to good things and bad things. Sometimes it is good benefits that reveal a person's heart and sometimes it is hard times that reveal a person's heart. You can find out a person's true character by giving them a million dollars or by taking all their money away, both ways are valid to separate those who are righteous and those who are not. Another benefit of future judgment is that injustice gives humans the opportunity to show compassion and love for each other thereby displaying one of God's most important character attributes. So justice actually is a prime driver in the human soul. Without it life would have zero meaning. 3. The problem with self interest being a motivation for justice is that in actuality self interest is the proper motive for injustice. Justice must be blind. It must be totally objective, impartial and right (accurate/correct/true). The proof of all human history and human misery is that man's self interest may temporarily cause a just response in life but all self interest eventually leads to a partiality to ones self, a inobjectivity to one's personal preference and prejudice and eventual choosing that which is right for ME. In no way can society through selfish intents or self interest produce ultimate justice. If there is not a perfect and just God to one day set things right they won't be made right. God has seen enough suffering and His heart is broken over it. He holds back His final day of justice in hopes of redeeming a portion of mankind to righteousness and justice. I personally believe there will be a point of no return where the just benefits of God's patience will no longer merit God waiting, evil and injustice will be so prevalent on the planet that God will step in and end the pain. That is what the Bible calls the final judgment. Also justice demanded the sufferings of Jesus Christ. A vicarious punishment for the injustices of the whole world for all time.
