That's another big lie from the mainstream media. They intentionally translated the lines catering to the taste of the bigots. And our dear forumer Sammy believed it. Brilliant.
Come on. I'm with you on civil liberties, Patriot Act provisions included. (Guess what? You can protest those here, and not be arrested.) Though, "our house" is pristine by comparison. Martha Stewart-level clean. I remember reading about both Kent State and Koresh in public high school textbooks; curriculum standards may have shifted since then, but I am at most a library (publicly-financed!), Barnes & Noble trip or internet click away from learning whatever I want about the subjects. Heck, a Kent State-like event was just featured in the opening credits to a recent Hollywood blockbuster, Watchmen, that somehow made it past America's strict censorship boards. Similar to the photograph: Spoiler Wait: the present-day cover up of Tiananmen Square is the "small stuff," or the shooting itself was? "Small stuff" is the basic lack of a free press? I don't think we agree on what constitutes this stuff. How, pray tell, would this government narrative, the "norm," go? What is the "norm" for the gunning down of peaceful protesters? The continued crackdown and censorship of the press, and the whitewashing of history? The US house may not be altogether spotless, but on this issue, it is far, far from glass. There is no equivalency here.
The scope and circumstances surrounding the Patriot Act and what goes on in China are so drastically different that it's just hardly relevant. And no, a lot of Americans weren't more than happy to have the Patriot Act. We've protested it and trashed it pretty soundly for the most part. Unfortunately, even in a Democracy it takes time for the courts to take power back from the President and Congress but we do have a process and it works. As for comparing Kent State to Tiananmen, that's just all kinds of wrong.
What's this? Another Sammyism? Brilliant. Got another one for ya. Oh that is great one. I'm wondering how in your mind the Chinese government could spin sending troops protesters. The newer generation may not know every details of what happened (no one who wasn't there do, including you), but they know enough to make a judgment regarding which side they support. And they decided they don't care. Mind you, that is a generalization, but the average student at that age nowadays do care less than 20 years ago. Btw, the Chinese government does acknowledge the event so I've no idea where you are coming from in the first place.
Before you talk about how others feel, you should try to live their lives first. Have you been half hungry for five years in your life? Have you ever try to buy things where everything from toilet paper to matches were rationed? Where more than 70% of people only eat meat once a year? It is so easy to talk about freedom and liberty when your stomach is full and you life is good. Try to talk to people who are starving in African or anywhere else and ask them would they rather have freedom or the living of people in China and I bet you 99.9% would choose to live a better live.
Did the Chinese govt. allow any ceremony, event, or gathering to commemorate the event? I'm not talking about people's apathy or lack of apathy in relation to the movement. I'm asking you did the government allow any gatherings, events or commemoration at all at Tienanmen Square? If no, why not?
Freedom is the birth right of all humanity. We've already walked that walk, fought that fight, and the world is a better place for it. A truly better life comes from liberty and freedom, not from subservience to totalitarianism.
I am waiting for an explanation as to how not allowing commemoration of the event equals not acknowledging it.
I don't think they've denied it ever happened, but by not allowing any attention to be brought to it, they are increasing the apathy and lack of knowledge of what happened that day.
I am awaiting for an explanation asto how deliberately ignoring an event equals not acknowledging it. Oh wait.....noh I'm not, I'm not a dumbass fake masochistic loser out of jackie chan's imagination I can actually read.
Have you guys read prisoner of the state? There are chapters in that book recounting how the crackdown unfolded. Looks like the hawks (Li Peng, Yao Yiling , party elders and the Military) wanted to crack down the protest from the very beginning, and the pigeons (Zhao Ziyang, Tien Jiyung company) wanted a more democratic approach. Deng swung between as the boss. This makes sense as I lived those days. As I recall, the tone of the government was very confusing, and ambivalent. Zhao seemed to be on the wrong side of the history (Well, at least for now). Very interesting book. As for lack of interest and knowledge about the event, I think the reason is mainly because there is no media exposure of the event. Everybody wants to forget, the government and the people. It is sad to me that lot of young kids born after 1989 don't even know what 6.4 is.
I don't understand how people can care too much about the political system that affects their lives. Also I don't agree there are less complaints. True, by and large, people's lives are improving vertically. However, if you look at the differences between the rural people and city middle class, it's hardly a harmonious picture. The rural people are treated like second class citizens. We can't even begin to talk about basic rights such as sending kids to the city schools where rural people work. There are technical difficulties, but it has to be resolved in a democratic way. I feel your sentiment is that of a typical middle class Chinese, which probably only counts less than 20% of Chinese population.
I have. Good old days. Seriously, what does that have to do with progress towards democracy? Are economic progress and democratization exclusive? When can we see signs of free media, free speech, free election. I will die for that day. I will actually argue that China needs democracy to further our economic progress. We need it not because everybody votes so SamFisher can shut up. We need it not for the show. We need it for the better-being of the country.
That is merely your opinion, more than anything else, like say... reality. Because the counter-side of that argument is that by hammering an event like the western media do, you are bringing attention to an event that people no longer care about. Two sides of a coin, see? It doesn't. Deliberately ignoring it doesn't equal acknowledging it. We are in agreement. The bigger question, moron, is how you managed to turn not caring about something because one's life is pretty good equates being brainwashed not to care. Sammy, getting into the usual question dodging again are we? It's early even for you. Even you don't usually do it until the 5th post. Or is it 4th? I lost count. You are wrong on several counts. To start, the rural communities in China always were less politically active compared to the urban population. That's just the way it is. Do you really feel that those students sitting at Tiananmen Square in '89 are as in tune to the needs of the "rural people" as you'd like? Suppose we had a do-over and China because a democracy in '89 (and somehow managed not to collapse), do you think those problems you've mentioned wouldn't exist? Btw, have you ever heard the expression that in the opinion government, New York State ends at Syracuse? Upstate and Western New York gets far less attention than Downstate. That's just the way it is. And that's in the US... a democracy. Switching to it doesn't fundamentally change the basic situation. And as far as rural areas is concerned, c'mon, think about it. 20 to 30 years ago, those same folks are complaining about the rights to survive... literally. Today they are complaining about property rights, government subsidies, substandard housing construction. Do you not feel that there is less to complain about?
I wasn't there but remember following it closely at the time and I remember there seeming to be some confusion on what was going at the time from the government. From what I remember there was a move by the PLA into Beijing the week before June 4th but they pulled back after being confronted by the protestors and people in Beijing. From what I remember those PLA units were from around Beijing but the PLA troops that carried out the June 4th suppression where from other parts of the country. I don't think we will ever know why exactly the decision was made to finally move in on the protestors. From what I recall by June 4th the protests were winding down and it seems like they could've waited and the protests would've have run out of steam.
Excellent post. I think that not only can China continue economic with democracy but that relaxing central control will be essential to having a first world economy.
