what great player has ever been hampered by a "system"?

Damn. You kind of nailed him.

pgabriel - would you please admit that you selectively used evidence to support your point when you had to have seen other compelling evidence that countered your point?

Would you care to explain your selective use of stats? You're not biased, are you ? Why are you willing to be deceptive to back-up Francis at all costs... if Steve is actually that good?

 

Nachbar, extreamly held back.

 

He played more minutes per game in Houston so I averaged them out. As far as playing a fifty game season, so did everyone else. Bottom line, Pippen actually said it.

 

Yeah,

We should listen to a whiner like Scottie "My head hurts too much to go in coach" Pippen.

He had the benefit of playing alongside Jordan for years...the perfect complimentary player.....

He should never have been included in the top 50.....look what happened the year and a half he had to lead the Bulls.....

Pippen has no credibility here, and the stats only prove that he declined and the system was not the problem, just the man.

DD

 

Okay, if you say so.

And gosh darnit you're right, he didn't win a championship without another all-star on his team. He was terrible.

 

Good Post. I second that.

 

A system can make a player worse. Let's say you put Yao in the Loyola Maramount run and gun system. I'm certain you would not see the same Yao. He'd probably be in the hospital from the get go. I don't think his greatness could overcome the exhaustion.

 

No and No. Marbury has been in countless systems, on terrible teams and decent ones, as a young player or veteran, yet his productivity as a PG--including points, assists, steals and A/TO have been relatively constant.

Same is mostly true for Francis (different systems, different surrounding players), except his consistency in traditonal PG markers are in excessive turnovers and poor A/TO ratio for an NBA point guard.

Sometimes you have to conclude it is the player, not the system or his supporting cast or anything else, if anything Marbury and Francis track records across various situation prove this. Marbury does have his negatives for sure, but they are not reflecting in his productivity as a PG.

Though the system does not have great relevance to production, it still does have relavence, especially regarding the talent of the other players in the system. Steve would be great if the NBA was a 1 on 1 or maybe 2 on 2 game. But SF is only a good player in 5 on 5 because he is a step behind reading players compared with the better team players in the league. Steve's talent would be maximized if he went to a team with 4 starters who focus on defense and rebound while Steve plays off the ISO. That team (LAC, Atl, Bos, Chic, Wash) will never be great, but they could also could win close to half their games and provide some highlights to bring in fans. Thus I do think Steve's talent on a team with a better offensive option and more complicated offensive system that relies on all 5 guys being involved and knowing what to do is wasted. Send SF to a team without a Yao Ming and a team thrilled to win half their games based on a sigle player with a lot of individual talent and skill.

 

When Pippen got here, he was ok. Evidence by that was when he went to Portland, he was 3rd fiddle on that team.Scottie Pippen of 1993 could have played and succeeded here, but the 99 version wasn't that impressive.

 

verse,

I kinda agree with you main point. Unfortunately, the way you put it brings out a lot of questions that really "hamper" your point.

We all know that "systems" affect players, great or not. Systems make great players as well as average players better or worse. The simple common sense is that you use the player the right way, you get the most out of him. That's what every coach is supposed to do.

Someone has already pointed out, no smart coach wouldn't design his system around the greatest player on his team. So your point is really hard to prove. What is clear is that JVG doesn't think Francis is the greatest player on the team, or else he wouldn't have asked Francis to change his game. So either JVG is stupid, or Francis is really not that great a player.

 

Pippen was a great player. It he exercised a little patience and kept his emotive temper tantrums away from the media, he might have been able to put together a championship run with Barkely, Olajuwon, rookie sensation Steve Francis and Shandon Anderson to start. He needed to make sacrifices for the team and act as A TRUE COMPLIMENTARY PLAYER by running the point at times, play defense, hit shots, stop complaining and use his brains on the court.

I love Pippen. He's a great player and it was always a dream to have him in Houston. A great honor. It's too bad he erupted and blasted his friends. His move to Portland proved that Pippen almost could have become a TOP TEN PLAYER. Game 7 of the West Finals of 2000 and Game 1 of the Western Conference First Round circa '99 proved that Pippen was a top 50, but not a top ten player.

He had four chances with Portland and couldn't help them get over the hump. I love Scottie, it's too bad things turned out the way they did.

In retrospect, in losing in '99, that was a catalyst to getting Francis and losing these past four seasons (along with losing Hakeem to the Raptors) turned out to be a blessing in disguise - Yao "Dynasty" Ming.

"THE BIG BROADCAST OF 2006 - YAO MING, STEVE FRANCIS AND THE HOUSTON ROCKETS HAVE BROUGHT THE THIRD CROWN TO THE CITY OF HOUSTON, TEXAS. HOW SWEET IT IS."

 

Can't believe I missed this one.

hampered by system...

Sheed this year
Derek Anderson after he moved to Portland
Jeff Mccinnis after he left for portland
Damon stoudamire (hes an example of succeedin and not succeeding in diff systems) Look at last years Numbers vs the year before vs this year
Raef Lafrentz ( before going to Dallas vs. after getting traded)


and for fun - MOoche Norris (Rudy system vs. JVG)

 

One question that needs to be asked: Does a great player get hampered by the system or his role in that system? Yes, it does sound like the same thing but hear me out. Many of the examples of system-inhibited players were actually relegated to a lesser role. Wilt was no longer option #1 but option #1C with West and Goodrich. TMac went from being sidekick in Toronto to being the main man in Orlando. Even Scottie was relegated to the third option when he came to Houston (remember when he said he was fine with that). In Stevie's case, I do not believe it is JVG's system that is hurting his stats but the fact that he is no longer the main guy. Now, does JVG's system favor big men? Maybe but when the Knicks went to the Finals under JVG, it was due to the guard play. So I don't think it's the system's fault but rather, Steve's difficulty in becoming the #2 option in the offense.

BTW, Christian Laettner was a great player hampered by a system. If he had that Duke system in the NBA, he'd be a first-ballot HOF.

 

How about Hakeem in Toronto?

Steve Francis is a great player, just not one of the best like Shaq, Duncan or Garnett. We knew that from day 1, and there's not a single person on this board that will disagree with that notion. Francis is NOT top level talent like those 3 guys. He falls into a category with Baron, Webber, Brand, maybe Peja, K-Mart, and Ray Allen. That's pretty DAMN good, but not the best.

 

The system-
make smart plays
make smart passes to get better shots
Go through Yao where the mismatch is
kick out to open shooters who can knock it down
push the tempo in transition
set hard picks and take advantage of the pick and roll

Steve is definately hampered by this system.

First when we execute the system we win, and we have blown out teams by cutting down on unforced errors, stupid turnovers and getting good shots, good matchups, hitting open jumpers and putting the ball in Yao's hands when he is hot and has a mismatch.

When Steve executes, plays smart, hits his shots and we don't turn the ball over and we have a high intensity level, we usually win.

So if the system is any problem with these players I don't see it.

 

PREACH ON PREACHER !!!!

AMEN !!

DD

 

Steve Francis is a GREAT PLAYER, along with Shaw, Brand, Duncan, etc. He simply has to play smarter and continue tapping into his nearly LIMITLESS POTENTIAL.

 

I think it's cheaper and easier to have the coach's system adjusted to the players like what don nelson, adelman, and hubie brown are doing. JVG system really cuts back a the # of offensive possession and scoring opportunities. As much as i hate sf, JVG's not doing enough in molding the guards into the system.

 

TD is the league and finals MVP and you are putting francis in his catagory?