what great player has ever been hampered by a "system"?

Good thread. Glad to see you back, Verse. I'm not entirely persuaded by the logic, though... even if I ultimately agree with your point. I think that, generally, coaches aren't stupid enough to put a "great" player in a position where they're going to fail.

Make Shaq play in the high post like Divac, and you'll constain him. That said - the only way through this argument is to claim that JVG completely underestimates Steve's ability while acknowledging that Steve isn't very versatile (as his new role just isn't that unusual for a guard).

Moe: Great post. I think that was the best phrasing of the Francis conundrum I've ever seen.

 

This is off subject, but since I was the one that brought up Ray Allen in terms of wanting to trade for him via Francis I just wanted to add that I would rather have the ball in Ray Allen's hands late in the game with Yao Ming than in Francis'.

 

What about them? Vince Carter doesn't have a Yao Ming on their team, he is the star on the team and hasn't needed to change his style.

Ben Wallace? I know you've been gone for a while, but I hope you didn't lose it. Ben Wallace doesn't need a system, he's responsible for rebounds and blocks, not points and setting people up.

As far as I can remember, I don't think Dirk has been in any other system than the one he is in now.

JKidd is an exception, the guy is just ridiculous, I'll give you that.

You say great players don't get hampered by a "system," but have you noticed most of the guys you picked are the elite players and maybe, just maybe, the coach changed the "system" for them?

If your point is that JVG's system has nothing to do with Steve's woes right now, thats ridiculous. I agree that this isn't Steve's type of game and it might not work out, but "systems" do matter when it comes to games.

The bottom line: Steve is trying to make people happy by changing everything he has known about basketball. He is trying to be the PG everyone wants him to be and its just not him.

Tell Shaq to come out to 8-10 feet and play an outside game (like Yao, KD, Duncan, can do) and the guy won't be the same.

Tell Dirk to play in the post and stay in the paint and the guy won't be the same.

Tell Iverson to pass the ball first and shoot second, and to always look for your teamates, and the guy won't be the same.

Tell Francis to....well, look above, you get the point.

 

You should've just stuck to your main thesis instead of hiding behind some dumb-ass hypotheticals so your post has the guise of being real analysis instead of mere bashing.

 

I didn't discredit his success, I said besides that season. And besides that was in the Eastern conference whom the Rockets only lost one game to that year. Apples and Oranges.

 

That was my first post in that thread when you refuted my point. How am I being hypocritical? I said it was a pretty good season.

 

verse: I understand that you contend that Steve is not a "great" player, but you're comparing him to nothing but HOF'ers. Of course he's not on the level of a Jordan or Shaq.

Is Dirk a "great" player to you? Baron? Marbury? Pierce? These would be better comparisons.

 

Jason Kidd hated the triangle when Jim Cleamons got himself fired in Dallas. Just hated it. Never played it again, either.

I really like the triangle, personally - but definately bad fit for his talent.

You could also say Gary Payton's having a little trouble being Gary Payton now.

 

Shaq has changed his style of play? Really? It still look like the same ole backing-it-in.

Jim Jackson is a great / very good player???!!! What part of his game is asked of him to change?

andre miller, don't you mean the one that went from cleveland to clipperland?
___ MPG FG% 3P% FT% REB AST STL PTS
CLE 37.3 .454 .253 .817 4.7 10.9 1.56 16.5
LAC 36.4 .406 .213 .795 4.0 6.7 1.24 13.6

Grant Hill, he played a total of 47 games in 3 seasons, still want to use him as an example? Ok...
Here is career avg at each place.
___ FG% REB AST STL PTS
DET .476 7.76 5.2 1.6 21.6
ORL .453 7.43 5.03 0.9 15.0
Oh yes... he has thrived and excelled...

Karla, he only played 24 games this season, but ok...
His #s are pretty consistent across the board except PTS, he went from 20.6 to 14.0
I doubt Karla had to make as big an adjustment as Steve, but fair enough, I give Karla the edge.

Gary Payton, taking MPG in consideration, he lost 1.3 AST and 2.8 PTS as oppose to Steve losing .2 AST and 4.2 PTS. Gary's FG% did stay consistent where as Steve lost .037%. Gary has an edge over Steve. Again, Gary's change is not as drastic as Steve's. Gary is still playing within his own game.

Sam I Am, what part of his game has changed? When was he ever a go-to guy and asked to relagate that position? Until this year, didn't we always hear that he puts up good assist #s for a "me first" player? Sure, I'll give him the edge because Sam played like an all-star this year.

Kenny Thomas, once again, what part of his game is asked to be changed? He is still playing the same way he has always played and he was never the "go to" guy.

Well, out of the 3 that have the edge over Steve, 2 are Hall-of-famers and all 3 are 11+ years veterans.

 

I think the better question would be, "Would you trade Francis for, Dirk, Barron, Marbury or Pierce?"

 

Verse, there's obviously no winning the argument with you. You knock Francis for not making the playoffs and putting up good numbers and winning 45 and 43 games in the Western Conference to boot. Then you turn around and say Webber shouldn't be knocked for not winning in Washington because he put up good numbers. Yet you choose to knock Francis in his worst season with a completely different coach, while the Rockets are still set to make the playoffs. He's having the first bad season in a completely new system, and for the first time not being the focus of the offense. Its not enough evidence to completely dismiss him as a great player. At least wait till the season is over.

And the Rockets have more wins at this point than they did last year so no one on this team is having less impact.

What's your point??

 

Those 6 championships are proof of how a system can benifit a player...not to mention the benifit that comes with the best player ever suiting up next to him.

Scottie Pippen has done little more than whine and b**** since he quit playing with MJ. He had failure in Chicago as well as Houston and Portland with out MJ. He certainly was not the focus on the Portland team that challanged the Lakers a few years ago.

To place Pippen as a top 50 player of all time is debatable at best.

 

Put Yao in Dallas, they will be in the Final. Put Yao in Kings, they will be in the Final. Put Yao in Lakers, 4-peat. Yao stays in Houston, watch playoff on a golf resort.

 

Robert Horry was apart of 5 championships and his contributions to those championships is just as important and dramatic as Pippens were with the 6 that he was apart of. So according to your reasoning Horry should be a top 50 player.

 

Did Robert Horry turn around and lead that team to the Conference Finals when the team's best player left.

 

Ok, the two systems you mentioned are chamionship calibur teams with championship calibur players. Horible horrible analogy.

And just to let ya know, I DO think any star player would be hindered with our stagnant guard play. Bar none. Barkley hated playing with Steve and Cuttino for a reason.