Absolutely, center historically is not an offensive position. That's part of what makes Jokic so special, because you're getting curry/jordan level offense from a position that typically doesn't give you much offense. If you look at Rockets in the year dream won mvp for example, they were 15th in the league in offensive rating.
As Rockets fans, we should take the degree of difficulty argument and stuff it in a crate next to the Ark of the Covenant, lest we want other fanbases to bring back that tired idea of Houston's titles being asterisked since Jordan was playing baseball. I am truly happy for Jokic and Denver. Why are we trying to tear down the accomplishment of another long-suffering fanbase who has finally reached the apex of the sport? Let them enjoy it, it doesn't take away from what the Rockets and Hakeem accomplished in the slightest. To me, it's table stakes for both Giannis and Jokic to get that second ring and second finals MVP just to get in the conversation with Dream, where you can start debating the finer points of transcendent offense vs. transcendent defense, the rules of their era, and relative competition. If they end up with only one each, they can both go hang out with Dirk as legends of the sport who changed the game, but aren't in the true inner circle. If either guy manages to get to 3x Chips/ 3x FMVPs, I think that they'd probably surpass Hakeem in legacy to the general public. 3x FMVPs are Jordan/LeBron/Magic/Shaq/Duncan, with Bill Russell probably topping the list if the award had existed during his playing days. We are talking about some truly rarefied air there, splitting hairs between some of the top 10 - 15 players of all time.
Young man, come talk to me! Is that what I think that is? I know that's not what I think that is Why are you so angry? See you young men are dying of thirst Do you know what that means? That means you need water, holy water You need to be baptized, with the spirit of The Lord
Even Shaq from day one was vicious and more leaner, in 2nd or 3rd season he was runner up to Dream in MVP race five yrs before his apex 2000 version(fat)
Stupid to ask such a question on the Rockets Fan Forum !!! Jokic will never be the same , He is too short in the legs and not enough athletic. Hakeem the greatest defensive player to ever play the game ! Y
*PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT* If you think Jokic is better than Hakeem in any capacity, this isn't the forum or team for you. Turn in your fan card, renounce your ties to the city of Houston, and get lost.
-Surprised how Murray continues to go under the radar with superstar playoff numbers Hakeem never had in a #2. -Unimpressed by inflated stats of the space and pace era. His peers are also breaking ridiculous records left and right. It's not because they are so amazingly advanced either just like 60s and 70s guys weren't. We've seen predecessors of Joker in every era dating back to 7'1 Bill Walton in the 70s and 7'3 Arvydas Sabonis in the 80s, they just didn't benefit of this era tailor made for this freedom as a point Center. -Impressed by shooting splits-though he's not facing 90s C's in a compact and crowded game. -IDC what broken advanced defensive metrics say..Joker is not a good defender. Neither is Alpy nor KPj. If Dirk and Nash fused into 1 player, would you take that player over Duncan? Many would because many value offense more, but it would be a mistake. Duncan has nothing on Hakeem other than longevity..and i guess a slightly better passer?
Not even remotely comparable. That's the beauty of winning back to back, we have a "shut the f up" title. Maybe if Jordan had achieved any level of success against the Rockets. Oh and btw Jokic didn't beat Jordan either.
I think the point is, using degree of difficulty will inevitably turn into the "what if" territory, which would be an endless unproductive speculative gibberish. Even though Jordan didn't do well against us. But we have never seen him play against Hakeem's team in the playoffs. We will never know how they would have played if they met in the finals. I would never dismiss a championship unless it was won by clear unfairness (cheating, clearly biased officiating, etc.). Even the shortened seasons, and the bubble playoffs should be recognized because they were won within the rules every team played under.
Nothing in what you just said justifies declaring Hakeem an “ok offensive player.” Just because Jokic is phenomenal on offense does not make Hakeem’s offense “meh.”
The goal of offense is to generate the most efficient offense possible. Hakeem was not able to drive elite offense as the main/best player despite the whole thing being built around him. He was such a great defender that he's a top 8 all time player. No player is flawless, though hakeem on defense and jokic on offense pretty much might be.
