Honestly (and obviously), because I don't have the balls for a face-to-face confrontation like that. I've only got the balls when Brian's 200 miles away and I'm sitting behind a computer. I'm sorry for attacking BrianKagy personally. I shouldn't have done it. I wish I hadn't. If I had it to do over again, my original post would probly read "I'll tell you what kinda person says stuff like this - Jimmy the Greek." CNN chose thid particular statement to illustrate why Jimmy "The Greek" was fired. "Jimmy "The Greek" Snyder: If they take over coaching like everyone wants them to, there's not gonna be anything left for the white people. I mean, all the players are black, the only thing whites control is the coaching jobs. Now I'm not being derogatory about it, but that's all that's left for them." CNN thought that statement exemplified why Snyder for fired for remarks about black athletes. Everyone agrees the Snyder statement is offensive, right? BK's statement is worse, because it comes 13 years later and adds the part about whites buy 80% of the tickets and merchandise. Who thinks that the Greek's statement is defintely offensive, whereas Brian's is definitely not?
jamcracker, As an avid reader of this board and the self proclaimed "Sergeant at Arms", I want to point out that your continuing to hammer on a point that has already been explained and refuted by many, including BK, is really getting annoying. I don't mean to be blunt, but you are acting like the kiddos in the main forum, those that want the Rockets to do a stupid trade or draft a certain player. They figure if they repeat themselves enough, it will happen. I took it upon myself to tell them so, as I doing here with you. Yes, what BK said is similar to a statement attributed to Jimmy the Greek. But the meaning and intent behind the statement has been shown to be different entirely. Yet you continue to harp. Why? A lot of people on this board have had some type of run-in with BK, myself included. I learned that he has NO sense of humor when it comes to his political leanings. That lesson has been stored away so that I know not to make fun of the Republican party (they do a good enough job on their own.) Does this mean I should hammer away at Brian to prove my point? What point? It's just a fact I know about Brian. You too have no point to stand on anymore. Let it go. ------------------ I always thought "With my talent, it's only a matter of time before I'm discovered". Now I think "With my talent, it's only a matter of time before I'm found out".
Maybe if Jimmy The Greek had a chance, days later, to explain the meaning and intent behind his statements, we'd feel differently about The Greek too. Say Kagy were a newspaper columnist, and ended a column with his offensive quote. Then, in in his next days' column, he goes on to explain the meaning and intent behind it. I figure readers would still demand a retraction of his offensive statement. BK refuses to retract his statement. BK refuses to admit his statement is offensive. I'd have dropped the subject days ago if BK would admit that his original statement was offensive, and if he would retract it.
This is a blatant misrepresentation of what Brian posted. It implies that Brian added to what Snyder said. Brian did no such thing. ------------------ [This message has been edited by bobrek (edited May 23, 2001).]
Brian is not a reporter, or Jimmy the Greek, or a public figure, with the exception of being an admin on this board. This is a private board, and he can do as he pleases, even aligning with the Nazi's if he desires. If you don't agree, then you don't have to be here. A newspaper reporter is not allowed such luxury. He explained his intent as benign conjectur of an inconsistency in the race debate. We should take that in good faith and move on. Technically, he didn't have to say anything. ------------------ I always thought "With my talent, it's only a matter of time before I'm discovered". Now I think "With my talent, it's only a matter of time before I'm found out". [This message has been edited by Behad (edited May 23, 2001).]
jamcracker: You have made your point and it is obvious that very few here agree with you. If you find it offensive, fine, but most of the rest of us don't. Re-stating your opinion over and over won't change what or how we think. To quote an obviously wise Behad, "Let it go." ------------------ The internet is about the free exchange and sale of other people's ideas. - Futurama
Why, exactly, does he have to answer to you anyway? If he doesn't agree, he doesn't freakin' agree. END OF STORY. I don't agree with you either. Am I a racist too? What about everyone else on this board who doesn't agree with you. Are we all racists? Funny, but I don't think we've found a thread that has united so many different political backgrounds like this one before. jamcracker, you should be proud that finding you intolerable in this thread has become a tool for the rest of us finding common ground we may never have found before. Bravo! ------------------ The internet is about the free exchange and sale of other people's ideas. - Futurama
This was my initial, trite post: Funny enough, I'm still confused. I think that nice guys like rimbo, Jeff, etc. try to placate uncomfortable situations. I found myself anxious to avoid the temperature of BK's first post, merely b/c I like Brian, and I add in the extra ingredients behind his posts. We all have a history w/ BK, empathize w/ him (as much as you can do w/ a personality on a bbs), etc. But those words still confuse me. I'm not sure that they don't confuse other people too, but I'll look for the good. It must be an issue w/ me and my understanding of the situation, otherwise that would mean the rest of you are all cowards. I'm sure I can figure this one out. It completely rests on my shoulders. BTW, I respect Brian. I like Brian (though again, I reluctantly haven't met him). I also try to be very rational in these situations. When Timing started down the 'sexist' path w/ rockHead's post, I honestly had no idea as to what he was talking about and hopefully I conveyed that. But please understand that single snapshot of a post isn't as cut and dry intuitive as many of us make it out to be. All my best Brian... but I liked your post better when I just thought you were trying to get a rise out of us. ------------------ Medical mar1juana is a gateway drug, and many who use it go on to use stronger stuff--even engaging in full-blown chemotherapy.
That's easy. I find Greek's comments offensive because he said more than just that. It was representative of a pattern of behavior and thinking. I know Brian. I know who he is and basically what he believes. I've read hundreds of his comments on this board and this one is consistent with those beliefs. I don't find it racist as much as I find it sarcastic and conservative - both typical of BK. I don't necessarily agree with what he said or says, but I did not find this offensive. If you did, that is your choice, but that doesn't make him accountable to you personally for that. I'm sure I've said plenty of things that people find offensive. I'm sure there are plenty of things you've said on this board others have found offensive. Are you as accountable for your offensive comments if only one thing you said offended one single person? Must you retract your statements and agree they are offensive? Be careful how you answer because I guarantee that with all you've said there are plenty of people out there digging through all your previous posts looking for the smoking gun. ------------------ The internet is about the free exchange and sale of other people's ideas. - Futurama
Jeff: I actually disagree with some of that. There are things that are so offensive that they should *never* be ignored or tolerated. I believe that we should all allow for wide differences of culture, up-bringing, opinion, past experiences, logic... etc. But some things are so fundamentally wrong that it's NOT ok to be silent about. It's even not OK to simply state your opinion and let it go. The cliched, and obvious, example is the Holocaust. If the "silent majority" had really acted as they supposedly felt, tragedy would have been averted. Other things, like Stalin's massacres, come to mind as well. Racism is *evil*. There's no room for opinion on the subject. If jamcracker *really* believes that Kagy was being racist, he has EVERY right to act outraged and carry on the discussion until every other one of us is convinced. (The personal insult was completely out of line, though.) I don't htink the statement was racist. I think Kagy was just demonstrating a logical flaw. But I see why jamcracker might think otherwise. And if people like you and clutch who I respect hadn't been so adamant that Kagy wouldn't say something like that hadn't been so vocal, I might have been more suspicious. Lecture jamcracker on the personal stuff; but as for standing up for what he believes, and condemning something he really thinks of as wrong... well, I admire that. ------------------ A few years back on the Senate floor... Phil Gramm: "If Democrats could, they'd tax the air we breathe." Ted Kennedy (jumping up): "By God, why didn't I think of that sooner!" Boston College - NCAA Hockey National Champions 2001
You don't have to be a racist to make a racist, offensive comment. I asked whether you thought Greek's and Brian's comments were offensive, not whether you thought Brian himself was racist. I don't think Brian is a racist either. I do think he made an offensive, racist statement. [This message has been edited by jamcracker (edited May 23, 2001).]
I'm not saying that any of us shouldn't stand up for our beliefs. We should. I'm just saying that there is a time to argue and a time to let things go. I just find making the same points over and over while the object of your argument doesn't change to be a waste of time and pretty pointless. You didn't find Brian's post offensive? You might be offensive to jamcracker too. ------------------ The internet is about the free exchange and sale of other people's ideas. - Futurama
Ok, I didn't find his comment offensive. I didn't agree but I didn't find it offensive. ------------------ The internet is about the free exchange and sale of other people's ideas. - Futurama
Jeff: I didn't find it offensive. I just didn't think it was correct. There's a difference between a logical fallacy, and racism . As for the rest... there are some issues that i wouldn't give up on no matter how dogmatic, or unchangeable the other person seemed. If we had the Grand Dragon of the KKK on out site, I probably wouldn't stop arguing with him no matter what. ------------------ A few years back on the Senate floor... Phil Gramm: "If Democrats could, they'd tax the air we breathe." Ted Kennedy (jumping up): "By God, why didn't I think of that sooner!" Boston College - NCAA Hockey National Champions 2001 [This message has been edited by haven (edited May 23, 2001).]
well that's kind of offensive. ------------------ Medical mar1juana is a gateway drug, and many who use it go on to use stronger stuff--even engaging in full-blown chemotherapy.
I find ALL of Kagy's remarks in this thread offensive. Maybe you all can accept his explaination, but I cannot. The guy spend a thousand or more words to explain the less than fifty words made in his previous two posts. His explaination after all of that spin doctoring is basically to forget what you think I meant this is really what I wanted to say. My opinion is he should of just said that in the first place! The bottom line is just because many posters have not out and out said they find his remarks offensive doesnt mean they dont Jeff. To Kagy, I hope, for your sake, you never make a similar remark to an African-American face to face, thinking THEY wont find it offensive, you just might get decked. However, I am sure you wont get decked since most african-americans are much more civil than you and would prolly walk away! ------------------ I am an invisible man. [This message has been edited by kbm (edited May 23, 2001).]
kbm: I said most, not all. It is your right to feel the way you do and I understand. I didn't mean to imply that no one else was bothered, however, it appears the majority was not. ------------------ The internet is about the free exchange and sale of other people's ideas. - Futurama
It's been made abundantly clear that BK and those behind him feel no need to explain/justify the statement further. That's fine I suppose, but I'm still really bothered by the original statement, so I'm going to continue on with the discussion. I've been the target of racism in my life. I've been called n**g**, sand n**g**, dot head, wetback and many more. [It's always amusing when they can't even figure out the proper slur] I've had rocks thrown at me along with those racist terms. Some prick tried to drown me when I was about 8 yelling the nasty words. I've overheard the jokes at work and in frats at school and the carefully worded insults. I know real racism. I know thinly veiled racism. BK's statement was not racist. But it was inflammatory and ignorant. I don't know the guy. I've only read him long enough to know he's very conservative and has views that I believe are very narrow-minded. When I read the original response, it sounded like a angry retort from a bitter man. It SOUNDED like "Dammit I pay for this ****, I deserve to have some of *my* people out there." I'm still not entirely clear about what you meant. You say your intention wasn't to be inflammatory. My best guess is that you were trying to say %ages are meaningless [though if this is it, that's a terrible job of communicating your point]. Is that what you meant? How are they meaningless? The fact that Blacks account for 50% [I'm pulling this number out of my ass]of the applicant pool yet only account for 10% of the coaches doesn't say anything to you? To me, it says something's going on. Maybe the NFL establishment is racist, or maybe they're afraid to take risks on new people, or maybe Black people in the applicant pool usually don't have the ability to coach the team as well as the WHite people. Regardless, something is up. Your "coaches are selected on merit"-argument supports the third issue. I have a real hard time believing that. I think the top/middle/bottom 10% of Black people will compare very favorably to the top/middle/bottom 10% of White people. If my belief is true, we can rule out the third reason and say the coaching selections are not based on merit. Something else is going on. Sorry for discussing the original topic of the thread...Back to the digression: BK you post here enough to that true intentions can be misinterpreted over e-mail, BBSs, etc. Therefore I would expect you to be more careful about how you phrase your posts. Unless of course you don't care, which is certainly not the case given your participation in this thread. You don't have to respond, b/c you're probably sick of responding to people, but at least think about it. thanks. ------------------ **
Guilty as charged although I hope I am getting better about this. SOUNDED like, hmmm. Shall I explain what it meant, again? No. I think that's been done to death. I am sorry, but I cannot tailor my posts so that they do not offend the five percent of readers who are hell-bent on being offended by anything that differs in the slightest from their perception of race relations in America. I cannot build in an automatic defense against intentional misinterpretation by people who want to attribute beliefs to me that I do not have. Thanks to all who have posted in this thread. It has been interesting and disturbingly educational. ------------------ "If you make someone think they are thinking, they will love you. If you really make them think, they will hate you."--Don Marquis
