Thanks for clearing that up Jeff. I was still having trouble figuring out what Timing was talking about and felt like the subject got cut short. Was there some specific Romesque sexist reference involving women or something? Ahhh, nevermind, I don't really care to know. ------------------ women love me, fish fear me.
I guess this means I finally get to return to my "Rebel Without a Cause" posting. So, Clutch if I am a great guy in real life, why trash my brisket party invitation...that was cool! What is a real joke is you choosing a race issue thread to slap me upside the head with the full force of blind-siding, Almu pent-up anger, yet say I am a nice guy. As I've said several times, race issues are my strongest conviction. It really is a religion to me. Friend loyalty is right there with it. This thread is no joke to me if you want to really know the "real life great guy". Nice how you conveniently dismiss TL, kbm and me on issues at hand (and focus exclusively on the friend loyalty part). What is a real joke you not being able to separate my friend loyalty from my race issues. What is a real joke is having the audacity to wrap up the beliefs of 3-4 posters in this thread by saying we "need serious help". Clutch, the comment was a racial slur. You or me is not really allowed to define that, especially when you take the position of concern for calling "I can't force white ball on 'Zo" to be worthy of the editor's stroke. No one compared it to calling someone a ******. We compared it to Kagy censoring an obvious rap lyric by a new poster in utter admonishment. My whole life I have sought out diversity in friends to learn more. My Army years taught me that I would rather be black and disenfranchised than listen to white people talk the talk, yet show little willingness to learn what minorities consider to be the full spectrum of racism. Knowing that two Army buddies taught me more about people, and how to look into their eyes to see their heart, than any family or education or books or religion could ever do, I have come to realize one must seek to learn something from everyone in life, or you risk remaining ignorant. What is a sad joke is reading Clutch's post, Jeff and Kagy's in response to my serious issues discussing racial slurs (which they each have a history of being concerned about censoring), yet you choose not to try to learn something from everyone in this thread. Kagy, I believe jamcracker should apologize. I have told him several times that I have always liked your posting (of course, I am a trash talker, go figure) and was particularly fond of meeting you and warmed by your smile. jamcracker does not react well to inflammatory comments. Obviously, it built up. That happens. Knowing him, I could see he was making a 'red-neck with a mullet' type of point that is frequently made on this board concerning matching physical stereotypes to racial slurs. To the Miggidy Markels and the two smartest men I've ever known: Kurt Brown and Tyrus Hayes, I continue to have no idea what my race's predilection is with not facing race issues, yet feeling good about it, and applying overly-educated semantics arguments like "racism doesn't exist" like BrianKagy once used. Brian, being true to your heart, your girl and your God is are only parts of the puzzle. Be true to the hearts of others and their beliefs, too. And Clutch If you were a great guy on this bbs, you would have asked me before using my moniker at the head of your imfamous popeye admonishment thread, especially when you emailed the post for comments hours before posting. What's up with waving heypeon the real joke quotes around when you slap popeye. Do that stuff with your own words. And you would have accepted my word when I said I was not Bob Rainey in your clear accussation that I would hack the server of a friend, and you have never apologized to me for what I consider professional disrespect to a "great guy" in "real life". [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited May 22, 2001).]
I can't wait until skin color is a moot point for everyone. The race issue is getting real tired. This should be about Merit alone. Meritocracy, that is the answer. DaDakota ------------------ If you like RTS games, check out this one. www.frontierwars.com coming soon to a PC near you.
Can we drop this now? It really isn't serving any purpose. Guys, please go back to your corners, apologize, shake hands, and move on. ------------------ "Blues is a Healer" --John Lee Hooker
you censoring me for my own good, Achebe? Friends don't let friends make inflammatory comments. We all need friends like that. sorry man, the childish brisket inivitation trashing made me do it.
I couldn't agree more. It's among the stupidest arguments on the planet that should not even be a case, yet there are enough around to perpetuate racism that make it a case. There are racist white people that continue to deprive minorities by their backwards thinking. There are minorities that will take the most innocent compliment and turn it into a racist issue and expect to somehow obtain good from it. It's a damn shame that the group of minorities and whites that want to come together and actually solve these problems are continually being thwarted by the fools from each of the above 2 groups. Amen. ------------------ I encourage you to take a look. His rhythmic meter and usage of alliteration is sublime, as is his boldly dark but refreshing subject matter, which rivals that of Byron or Shelley-- this statement was actually made by a guy who won our fantasy basketball league (fadeaway). We're not worthy.
Hey-P, I appreciate you responding, but... Hopefully you will excuse me if I find this to be extremely condescending. My comments were not racist in nature-- I was pointing out an inconsistency in reasoning, and nowhere did I say I believed anything specific to the abilities of a given race-- and I cannot help it if people can't disagree on this subject without overreacting or engaging in name-calling. I can't "be true to (someone else's) beliefs" if that means doing anything other than expressing my belief and listening politely while they do likewise. Race relations may be the issue you're most passionate about, but I hope I do not need to remind you that none of us has it figured out. I am trying not to snap at you, but I seriously resent the implication that you have a keener insight into or deeper perspective of race relations. As I said in an earlier post, I could post my laundry list of reasons I should be exempted when they're compiling the Great White Devil list-- but I'm sure I'm not alone in regarding people who feel the need to list their qualifications to validate their open-mindedness with suspicion. Lastly, I think it is hugely ironic that, in a thread where I was castigated for my willingness to question racial beliefs that were widely accepted, you seem taken aback by the general unwillingess to talk about racial issues. Pardon me, but I don't know of any rational people who would find that to be intellectually stimulating. If people really wanted to talk about racial issues, perhaps progress would be made. But they don't. We end up with people like you who want to adopt a position of ministering to the poor misguided souls that haven't found God's path the way you have, and we have people like jamcracker who seem to simply want to make themselves feel better about their tolerance by branding others as racist. And you have people like me, whose reward for asking honest questions is outright castigation. Very productive. (A P.S. for some others on this thread: the dumbest thing people do on this BBS is to say 'God this thread has gone on long enough' or 'Can we drop this?'. If you don't like or want to participate in this conversation, there are thousands of other threads to read. Don't tell those of us who are still discussing the issue to stop discussing it just because you're tired of it.) ------------------ Handsomer than Buster Poindexter since November of 2000.
BK, Your sig should read, "more handsome..." That way, you can better show that you are not a racist. heypartner, Yipee, here I go... Let it go. Jamcracker was wrong, regardless of what you think about Brian. For all of your talk about wanting a real discussion of race, you have done little to promote such an atmosphere. All you have offered is a bombardment of Jeff, Clutch, and Brian. If Brian says his statement was not racist and wants to explain the point of it (and no, RM95, you were not the only one to get it from the beginning), how is the discussion furthered by you only saying that it was a racist statement and he is a hypocrite? This was a very good idea of Shanna's to discuss a much broader issue by first intorducing a specific case. If this is so dear to you, due to your life experiences, then discuss the issues. What do you think about the story? What do you think is the reason behind the lack of black coaches, etc? Do you think there is just one reason? Why are there more blacks than whites in the nba/nfl? What do you think about the issue that NBA teams like to keep a few white guys around for PR sake -- so that they can be "crowd favorites" of the predominantly white crowd? Is it racist to say blacks are better athletes? Is it racist to say that whites are better coaches? Let's stop being cowards and actually discuss something...instead of relying on cloak and dagger nonsense. ------------------ "You sanctimonious philistines, who scoff at me!"
I shouldn't have said "p____-whipped". Very offensive. I wouldn't say that out loud at the office. *bows and doffs cap for the ladies* "Pale" is a terrible word to use, given the context. "Scrawny" is mean. "pencil-necked geek" could describe half the people here. I shouldn't have used those words to characterize Brian. I could never imagine what kind of person would post the stuff BrianKagy does. I knew he was probably in mid-20s and worked in Austin at Dell. Almost every single person I know is in his mid-20s and works at a computer company. I never met a mid-20s computer guy who thinks like Brian does. Not even close. Once I saw Brian, I figured it out. I could see where he was coming from. Stereotypes are bad, I shouldn't have 'em. But, seeing BK, I could slot him into a place in my mind. I didn't like Brian before I met him, because I read his posts. I didn't like him after I met him, because I read his posts. I'd never like a guy who says the things Brian does. Meeting him had nothing to do with it. Seeing him did, however, help me understand where he was coming from. Is this one of your honest questions? You were trying to get people to really talk about race in sports with that question, right? ------ just for TheFreak, here's my first postin heypartner's "big ass black guys" thread:
jammie, you're not helping out. Unless you say that Brian had a mullett, your description and subsequent writing him off b/c of his posts is still a bias (again, unless he had a mullett, in which case I totally understand... does Brian have a mullett?). As confused as many of us still our by that first quote by Brian... let me attempt to soothe the wounds (though this is a really bad analogy and will evoke from rimbaud and rm95 that "Achebe doesn't get it", though the notion that it's a cross reference to underrepresented minorities in an audience seems a bit of stretch to me rimmy, it makes no sense ). What's absurd about gangster rap and 'tuff' gangster rappers? Perhaps the fact that white suburban kids are their biggest source of income. What this has to do w/ anything else, I'm not sure. Actually, nevermind. BK's first post makes no damn sense. I think that there's only one way to resolve this. ------------------ women love me, fish fear me.
Dude, that is hilarious! heaven's just a funky moose... ------------------ I refuse to use smiley's in my posts, you'll just have to figure out how serious I am on your own... [This message has been edited by Band Geek Mobster (edited May 22, 2001).]
That's unfortunate. I know exactly the type of person who would post the stuff you do. I know you did not intend this as a compliment, but I will take it as one. Well, let's see. You've met me once, for ten minutes, and we exchanged some civil if banal conversation. Jeff and Clutch have known me for years, and they're saying you're wrong about me. I think you can guess exactly what your opinion is worth to me. I am glad I fit whatever category you've assigned in your mind (although I find it interesting that you've never met a 20-something who thought like me YET you had a pre-defined category ready for me). I would hate to think you would have to get to know someone before you decided what type of person they were. Much easier to make this type of judgment. Jamcracker, I feel really, really sorry for you. I will never agree with "the things" Jeff says regarding politics and society, and yet I consider him a friend. I could say the same thing about my three closest friends. If you really cannot "like" someone with whom you disagree, then I think you have an answer as to why you are still single. That is really unfortunate, that you think you could learn more about me by seeing me than by my posts or by talking to me. You should ask yourself if that's really the type of person you want to be. As for my initial remark, it's been explained by numerous people in this thread. If you still want to know what I was trying to accomplish by posting that, you can hit the rewind button yourself instead of asking me again for clarification. One last thing: I would just like to point out that cataloguing your mistakes is not the same thing as apologizing for them. ------------------ Handsomer than Buster Poindexter since November of 2000. [This message has been edited by BrianKagy (edited May 22, 2001).] [This message has been edited by BrianKagy (edited May 22, 2001).]
Brian's remarks could only be construed as racist if you look at them as a profession of belief instead of a demonstration of an analytic flaw. Personally, I was scanning the thread for a sign of *any* racist comment after this entire thing happened, and thought the admins must have edited it out. I suppose other people thought he meant that minorities ARE inferior to merit in management; I think he at least deserved the benefit of the doubt before jumping down his throat. His opinions on this board are pretty conservative, but I've never heard him advocate anything viscious or racist. At the same time, I understand that race is a sensitive subject with a great deal of history behind it. I don't think it's surprising that some people misinterpreted that comment. The venom was just out of line. I do think that some people are being a bit harsh on jammie. yes, he should apologize... but if he REALLY thought that Kagy was professing that opinion the wrong way... well, I understand his anger. The mode of expression was inappropriate: no denying that, but when you're truly upset, thigns come out that shouldn't. I don't understand the antagonism that's subsisting in this thread. Personally, I don't think anyone spoke*that* badly. Even though the heypartner rebel rage could have been cut out . ------------------ A few years back on the Senate floor... Phil Gramm: "If Democrats could, they'd tax the air we breathe." Ted Kennedy (jumping up): "By God, why didn't I think of that sooner!" Boston College - NCAA Hockey National Champions 2001 [This message has been edited by haven (edited May 22, 2001).]
Brian, First off, call me Kevin. I can't talk to a "Brian" on this issue behind a silly salutory moniker. I am glad we are at least moving closer towards removing jamcracker's comments from my comments. btw: thanks for the bold part at the end. I'm sorry I have steered this thread way off shanna's article, but stuff like that happens. And often for the better in the end. At least between two posters who want only to express themselves. I see a lot of myself in your posts Kagy. Not necessarily agreeing with the topic, but loving the delivery. I do not subscribe to the philosophy that your inflammatory comments are bad for threads. I know I mentioned that here, but that was my own selfishness to make a point that if Almu can say heypeon is insulting in bball,,,someone tell me what the big deal is...Kagy is fine in the hangout threads. I also did not take offense to your one inflammatory cursing at me. Hey, that's what I get for sarcastic one-liners in a serious thread. About my quote you pulled You nailed it. You said, "I can't be true to (someone else's) beliefs" if that means doing anything other than expressing my belief and listening politely while they do likewise. I didn't mean anything else by that. That is what I meant. It was preachy, but I've found little to think you didn't believe that, too. Often people say things simply to see how people respond and as I means to direct their response. That is all. About condescending Yes you are right. I can be condescending towards race issues. Problem is, I am close to believing I *want* to be condescending in a manner of racial restitution. About the keener insight part Brian, you are reading too much into that part. I am very far from thinking I have it figured out. I do have it figured out how I personally am going to continuing learning about these issues. I believe you are mixing me stress the subject in my own life, as me having it figured out and looking to preach. About the qualification part, again, I believe in talking via telling stories when possible. I truly cherish my time in the Army. I truly do believe it openned my eyes. I want to share it. Like I told Clutch in a recent email, I cannot explain it other than it is most similar to the desire to "witness". Sorry if that sounds corny. I don't mean to belittle religious "witness"ing. It is my religion. There doesn't have to be much logic to it--just stories, beliefs and faith. I mainly listen and try to continue learning, but your claims of trying to qualify my open-mindedness are valid; of course, I agree with you. But Kagy, think about it. At worse, that is a human fault, worthy of suspicion, but not prejudice, without giving a full listen. It is often just any introduction of common discourse. Particularly if is a story rather than borrowed ideas that come with titles. To further my story of open-mindedness on this subject: Jeff pulled me out of lurk mode last Summer on a race issue. You'll see that I do try to share stories, not preach. In the thread where you said "racism doesn't exist", I don't recall us preaching at each other or pulling out our credentials other than for me to respond to your quoted love for semantics. I pulled out my Linguistic background credentials when it turned to academic passions, and to give you reason to listen for a different semantic argument. I considered listing those credentials in context and on-topic, not one-upmanship. taken aback by unwillingness to talk racial issues Sure, I am always taken aback; it is typical of this sphere of conversation, and desire to "witness" for one to think that. Brian, come on, "any rational people who would find that to be intellectually stimulating only returns us back to throwing condescending daggers at each other. Same with the misguided souls part. I know, you are trying to make a point there saying maybe that I shouldn't be flabbergasted; that it is part of life, and I am playing a simple role in it and am to focused on the issues to see that. Am I close? Brian, it can be a wonderfully stimulating conversation. There is much theory behind and a rich history of higher learning. Besides Race studies have roots in basic philosophy and theology. It is richer than you allegory of futility portrays. So what did I want to discuss Brian, I just want to talk about the racial slur to make a point. To me, it is a semantic mirror image of the Al Campanis comment (cheers to bobrek for correcting me on that). As I say, I have upmost tolerance for slurs. (Hell, I have tolerance for trash talking as castigation, too. And like I said about you, I have the thick skin to prove it.) So, why would I care? I can't possibly care if you say that or not, because I actually believe it is healthy for people to include race in discussion. What I care about is the next Miggidy? Let a rap lyric go; MTV does. Let people talk to Miggidy, if they are offended. Sorry, this sounds like this is a beyp situation on how to admin the bbs. It is not. I just really want to find diversity on this bbs. Rules of the bbs are not my issue, nor is my issue your role as censor; they are simply a platform of discussion. It is my faith to believe freedom of expression and tolerance is correct. It is also my thrill. It is also a moral imperative for me to try to get people around me to discuss racial tolerance and understanding. I simply view the Miggidy censorship to be a lost opportunity to see people deal with those lyrics in writing. It wasn't an insult. Let us figure that out. We are adults. We can handle it. BrianKagy does not have to protect me from those words. It kind of robs me of knowing how Middigy will handle the impending complaints, and who will make those complaints, and why. Here's a thesius of intellectual stimulation for ya It is my personal intellectual theory to hypothesize that the heart of race matters is that experiences shape emotions, and words are the prime tool of expressing emotions, thus leading you back to the experiences which shaped those emotions. Look for the emotions attached to words. Sometimes on the eyes say it. You will see that just like there is a full spectrum of degrees of emotions; there is a full spectrum of degrees of racism. *sigh* it stimulates me. I hope it stimulates others to discuss with me. For the board looking for handshakes and love all around for those making it this far, guys relax with the worries that heypee won't get along with the admins anyone. It doesn't matter. Can the bbs be effected by how one poster gets along with people? man, just talk to me. what difference does it make how I handle myself with other. I don't worry about you guys. Should I? behad, you said Jeff and I should get over ourselves. I think...maybe....once I can...maybe...speak for Jeff on this one and say; behad, did you ever think *you* should get over us? [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited May 22, 2001).]
I've met mullet-wearing rednecks who say things like Brian says. I'd never met a mid-20s computer guy who says what Brian says. Upon seeing Brian, my mind said "AHA, he's a little angry white guy". Stereotypes are bad, I shouldn't have 'em. I have friends who disagree with me on many issues. I would not be friends with a guy who would say "Is there anything left for white people to do in sports, other than buy 80 percent of the tickets and merchandise...? " If a friend said that to me and was serious and held fast to that statement, I'd dissolve the friendship. No one else on this board would make that statement and stick to it. Anyone else would admit he was being inflammatory.
Meritocracy can be racist too? more to the point . . . Idealogisticism I mean . . . One has merit for one does not hold merit for another. In business we are expect to do what is best for business 1st. . .what is good for the contry second. You don't send a black salesman to a Klan rally. The social thing is to say . . .HEY SHOULDN'T SELL TO KLANS MAN ANYWAY . . .but this is unrealistic and not sound business sense. The Business thing is to send the man in that can do the job. The problem is that the merit that wins this man the job is white skin! Unfortunately this is an extreme example . . . but not wholely without basis. Some jobs men get because they are men and can lead other men better than a woman . . .why .. . becuase some men would have problems with taking orders from a woman. what is the merit here? Being a man . . . .in these cases the woman has to overcome some preconceived notions etc. blah blah blah. The problem is trust. Racism = LACK OF TRUST Black folx don't trust White folx to act right White Folx don't trust black folx to do right Both of these are bases on personal histories and social upbringing. [Read personal biases and racial stereotypes instill by the communities and parents] NOW BACK THE COACHES Marge Shott may not give a job to a black man because she thinks ***gas don't know how to manage or that the white player won't work hard for a black manager or the public won't come out for a black manager or black managers can't jump . . .whatever . . .so she doesn't hire one [I maybe unfairly using ole marge as an example] I think when we look at the hiring of coaches etc . . . .we need to think of interracial marriages. . . everyone is for it .. . until it happens in their family. They may have a quiet grumble or a blow up. . but once it happens. .the second is easier. 1. Black folx impatient - I KNOW I AM . . I WANT I NOW!! mainly because hell it's been 400 yrs yadda yadda yadda 2. White folx don't have a sense of urgency about it. [these are both GROSS generalizations] These two are rather incompatible mindsets about racism. I don't know Brian Kagy . . so I don't know what to call him beyond Brian Kagy I think strong opinions are fine. Defending them is fine. Personal attacks not fine. Racial slurs not fine. Obstinance and stubornist are not fine. It's like not calling shaq for 3 seconds in the lane . . it is just wrong and unfair Rocket River ------------------
