BK, you know I love you man (ok, maybe 'love' is a strong word. ), but this would have been over hours ago had you just said "I'm a dork. I mistyped". I have to say those words... well, actually on a daily basis b/c of inflammatory comments that I make in my never ending confusion and my attempts to be funny. I choose all of the wrong times to make *bad* jokes when I assume that the other person will see through it (laughing at race relations/ homophobia, etc.). In the one time that I'll ever accuse kbm of posting something rational (j/k kbm ), his words are the stone cold reading of your text... but he might not at least assume the good in you to know that you were just spouting. It literally reads as if you're arguing "don't pass the ball to blackie!". Your intent is cleared up in your subsequent argument on 'merit', obviously... but when you returned to work and couldn't post or whatever (whoa, a doozie for you tomorrow, eh?) I think it confused the point. BTW, I'd reexamine my friendship w/ Jeff if I were you... his assumption that those ideas are actually in your conservative ideology speak volumes on his respect for you. ------------------ women love me, fish fear me.
BK, Sounds very "Jimmy the Greek"ish to me (I have no idea who O'Malley is). Sounds like, "Blacks can run fast and hit hard, but they can't run an offense (be a QB)". It's like saying all these white coaches are getting the jobs merely because they're better coaches.... that is very close to being racist. Unless, you're saying the disparity between white coaches and black coaches is related to blacks being "behind" whites in sportsology, because blacks were not allowed to participate at the highest levels early on. Not that I would agree with that argument, just that it would be a little less racist sounding. You haven't responded and told us all exactly what you meant, and it isn't obvious or there wouldn't be this much hoopla. You might be suggesting that white athletes are discriminated against. I believe that's true to some degree. Heck, I think my old football coaches chose running backs ahead of me because I was white. But, I'm sure the problem of anti-white discrimination is a drop in the bucket compared to black discrimination. That's like telling people who are trying to protect whales that they should be trying to protect mosquitos. I also think your statement does not consider the lack of ability for blacks to even get in the door for those positions. Maybe blacks are better coaches that whites, but we'll never know because they aren't even given the chance. No, I don't think a person's race has anything to do with how good a coach that person will make, but I think it's obvious some people do. I am interested in what BK has to add to the discussion. ------------------ DREAMer's Rocket Page
http://espn.go.com/ncf/s/2001/0501/1189879.html Was the father right, wrong, should this not be news? What do you think? ------------------ http://www.swirve.com ... more fun than a barrel full of monkeys and midgets.
I don't care about this whole silly discussion and who is wrong or right or what not, but can someone post a picture? We finally want to judge for ourselves .
Day late and several dollars short but we have invaded a Winslow family decision. Did Kellen Sr. bring this to the press? On the second issue about racism in the NBA coacing fraternity: I'm in my latter 40s and can name at least 5 black men who were coaches when I was a kid: Earl (or Bob) Lloyd, Al Attles, KC Jones, and Bill Russell. Bernie Bickerstaff, Don Chaney and Paul Silas came a tad later. Those names represent 7 different franchises in a much smaller league 25 years ago. Probably there are others I'm missing at 4 AM. The NBAs struggles are vestiges of a cultural chasm. I have as much trouble relating to Jason Williams as I do Allen Iverson. Look at the fat guys sitting courtside in their $200 seats. How long will they remain fans of such chumpery? Give me Dave Bing, Kevin Porter, Tom Van Arsdale, John Havlicek, Ray Allen or (woe to me) John Stockton anytime. Look at how the NFL is embracing Weird Ricky Williams. Deion was unique and so was tolerated but seems to have worn out his welcome; he has been shuttled around the league for half his career. The NFL doesn't seem to have such an ego problem with their players as the NBA does. Cut the personality crud and get back to the game. The NBA went wrong when the Celtics vs. Lakers matchups of my youth became the Larry vs. Magic matchups of my adulthood. Michael took it out of orbit and now they can't find their way back home. Payback is hell. The NBA seems to be on track to letting its character be defined by a sneaker sales chart. What's wrong with smart team basketball and good sportsmanship? Imagine if PGA golfers tried to get away with the junk that NBA guys try to pull. They lie about every out of bounds call trying to influence the refs. That offends me. Flopping does too. Play the game straight and hard. Let the refs do their job and accept the outcome. Goodnight. ------------------ Time is a great teacher-- only problem is it kills all its pupils. [This message has been edited by RichRocket (edited May 22, 2001).]
Wow. I'll have to cut out that whole "life away from the BBS" thing-- look how it's getting in the way of the wonderful opportunities I get to debate with good folks. I want to approach this in two ways. First, let's look at what I said, and what I said it in response to: BK: Is there anything left for white people to do in sports, other than buy 80 percent of the tickets and merchandise...? RM95: you'd think if they can deal with watching sports that are well over 50% African-American, they could deal with more black coaches as well. BK: You'd also think that if we believe that blacks are disproportionately represented in professional athletics based on merit, then maybe merit plays some role in selecting coaches too. I have no idea why this exchange was so exceedingly difficult for so many to understand. I have always found the concept of measuring sports by its racial breakdown to be frankly silly, because it always seems to stop just short of demanding that minorities be proportionately represented in the crowd, as well. It seems like the only places in the NBA (for example) where the outcome is credited to merit is on the court or at the ticket counter. All other areas, from officiating to ownership to general management seem to be considered ripe for social engineering. As a corollary, the assumption that the racial makeup of these areas is the result of collusion of bigotry by those in charge is accepted as fact rather than a possible explanation. For jamcracker, what I'm saying is that while we assume that the league is 70 percent black because black players earned their roster slots, no one is even willing to entertain the possibility that merit played any part in the selection of coaches or front-office personnel. Do I think that merit is always the sole determinant in selecting a coach or general manager? No. Do I think that merit always explains why, for example, a white male might get a job instead of a black candidate who's qualified? No. Did anyone ask me if that's what I thought, instead of assuming that by pointing out the discrepancy in reasoning, I automatically believed that and a boatload of things worse than that, too? No. Those of you who were so quick to jump on someone for pointing out an inconsistency in reasoning need to take a long, hard look in the mirror and ask yourselves what it was about the two innocuous points I raised that upset you so. I think that anyone who would get that bent out of shape about a discussion of the role of merit in hiring has some issues. Frankly, the reaction amuses me. This perfectly exemplifies why we have the kind of politics we have in this country. How dare someone examine a racial issue from all angles! Things are what I think they are and if you disagree, why, you're a racist! Rocket River raised a good argument and if I thought anyone was interested in a good honest debate, I might consider taking up the opposite point. But it looks to me like this has mostly become a thread in which racially insecure people can reassure themselves of their political correctness and general good-heartedness. I have no desire to stand in the way of that. Second, the "n" word. I deleted a signature which used it and thanks to Jeff's lobbying, we have made it a banned word on this BBS. I no longer use it when quoting verbatim because it offends people. I have never once used that word in my life other than to quote people who have used it, so this is a non-starter for me. Third, jamcracker. Thank you for the laughter you've provided. I am indeed skinny, thanks to genetics and especially a five-week bout with mono I had from March to mid-April. I don't expect you knew that I was violently ill for a month so I don't mind that you think being skinny is a bad thing somehow. I am pale, too. When I lived at home, I could lounge by the pool in the summer and get some nice color. Unforunately, that was ten years ago. Now I look like I work in a chalk factory. That's OK, too. I am not really sure I understand the term "p***y whipped". I hear it used a lot, but all it seems to mean to me is that the man in question (I say man because I've never heard of a p***y-whipped lesbian) takes into account his girlfriend's feelings and wishes when he acts. Guilty as charged, here. Although, since I assume you're referring to a lot of what I did the night we met, I should point out that: I like kissing my girlfriend and don't have to be talked into it. I didn't really cotton much to the idea of following you and your friends around the arena as you tried to find floor-level seats you could sit in without being kicked out. Read Clutch's recap to figure out why. We left earlier than most because we had a three-hour drive back to Austin ahead of us. We had a good time and had to depart earlier than we wanted. As for being a geek, again, probably guilty as charged although you'd have to explain what makes someone a geek. I realize this response is probably not what you were looking for. You seem really angry, which I can relate to. I have had problems with anger in the past and I certainly don't claim to have solved my temper permanently (although I am making nice progress). Perhaps I am attributing things to you that aren't really there, but I am willing to accept an apology and drop the issue. Fourth, heypartner. Have you ever considered the admittedly remote possibility that there are some topics that do not require your input? Lastly, racism. I could sit here and cite chapter and verse of the white paper entitled "Brian Kagy: Friend To Minorities". I could tell you what ethnicity my girlfriend is, or how the best manager I've ever worked for was black, or any number of things to try to redeem myself in the eyes of those of you who have appointed yourselves judges of racial tolerance. But you know what? I don't care. You might think you can figure out what's in heart by my appearance, by the few hours you spent in my vicinity during the one time we met. You might think that by reading posts on a BBS and interpreting them in the manner most convenient to the way you feel, you can figure out what's in my heart. In the end, I am accountable to exactly one person, and I am secure in the knowledge that He understands where I'm coming from. ------------------ It's a funny word, 'friends' You got beginnings and you got ends I guess I'll see you when we're ashes again --Chris Robinson
I think Brian's post is well-written, explains everything and that Brian deserves an apology. Sorry for my previous post, I was just kidding!
Det, we used to have pictures on the Crew page, but some Laker-fan flamer came over here and totally made fun of them, calling us a bunch of freaks. We pulled them because we hate when people are right. Keeley compared my appearance to Buster Poindexter. Unfortunately I do not have that haircut anymore. I'm going with the Alex P. Keaton look now.
Rocket River, ABSOLUTELY!! Yes, hirings SHOULD be based on "merit"! But how do you earn "merit" if you're not given a chance? I mean, how much "merit" do Lewis or Shell have to "earn" before given a chance? How much "merit" does Schottenheimer, one of the most over-rated coaches in NFL history IMO, have being that he was out of the league, what, 2-3 YEARS?! shanna, You and RRiver hit the nail on the head, please stop recycling all of these over-rated, tired coaches, because their unsucessful ideas and philosophies are also being recycled. But that's in every sport, case in point, Rick Pitino. It's obvious that his philosophies, playing and personnel-wise, just don't translate in the NBA, and I hope he stays in the NCAA. ------------------ [This message has been edited by Live (edited May 22, 2001).]
Keeley, given that Buster Poindexter looks only slightly better than a big pile of steaming, hand-made, dog poop... ...then the answer is, maybe.
But can you sing like Buster Poindexter???? "Izzzatchoo, Sandee Claus?" ------------------ "Blues is a Healer" --John Lee Hooker [This message has been edited by RocketMan Tex (edited May 22, 2001).]
Thanks for the clearup Kagy... Now we just have to find out why Jeff shut down rockHead's horsie post. ------------------ women love me, fish fear me.
Actually, rockHEAD asked me too. ------------------ The internet is about the free exchange and sale of other people's ideas. - Futurama
Man, how could I have missed replying to this entertaining thread? A good topic, spoiled by the rest of this bullsh*t. I'm with Kagy in lamenting that instead of freely discussing the issues, people choose to carry out a "who is more politically correct?" contest. I'm not in the mood to get flamed for my opinions (or even for playing devil's advocate). ------------------ Bingbong was set up, led to an untimely death in the prime of his life for no other reason than pure malice. Things like that do not go unavenged. Sometimes it spills out onto the field of play.
Yeah, I wanted to discuss other issues, but -- while I do not mind getting attacked -- this board does not really seem ready. Oh well. I am most hurt by Jeff's comment that I am not the flag bearer for conservative ideology...that sounds like fun. ------------------ "You sanctimonious philistines, who scoff at me!"
Damnit, Tex, no one sings better than Buster Poindexter! OK, Andy Williams. But that's it! ------------------ Handsomer than Buster Poindexter since November of 2000.
Perry Como (Rest his soul) This thread has been a very interesting read! ------------------ Everything you do, effects everything that is.
Was I the only one who knew what Kagy was arguing? I thought it was stupid, but I understood it. ------------------ www.swirve.com "Pre-born, you're fine, pre-school, you're f*****."-George Carlin
Maybe all we are seeing is affirmative action in effect at the coaching and management levels of professional sports. ------------------ Time is a great teacher-- only problem is it kills all its pupils.
