Maybe some of you know that I do not take race issue threads lightly. Jeff, Not only does everyone know that GMs have been fired for making slurs like Kagy did, but people have been censored by Kagy for saying racial slurs like he did. http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/Forum3/HTML/007022.html Notice the signature is indeed deleted by Kagy. I saw the post. I was Miggidy's very first post. He says "no harm done", but he didn't back off the censorship. So, Kagy should understand that if he is going to censor people for racial slurs, he needs to rise above racial slurs himself. Is this not part of the whole debate here? I know jamcracker. He gets really uncomfortable around inflammatory remarks. It is like a physical reaction. He usually just takes flight away from it. He can't hide from Kagy's flame throwing unless he wants to never get in a Hangout thread. jamcracker tells me all the time not to make racial comparisons to whites and black. imo, the issue is a sensitive one to him. Jeff, Kagy came straight out at told me to "Fick Off" for jokes in his racial thread that was in better taste than the one above. I think maybe you should just let him deal with jamcracker. Kagy shouldn't need your help. I really don't follow these Hangout threads, but I've seen enough inflammation and apologies to know, you guys can really go at the heart of people in here. In my opinion, I could care less what anyone says to a person who uses powers to censor race slurs then turns around and uses them and tells people to "f!ck off" in another Race thread. The person brings it on themselves, and probably has thick enough skin to prove it. I have a really strong conviction and much reading and listening on this issue, and a great deal of tolerance for racial slurs. But many people do not. We can debate that. But double-standard censoring is NOT a matter of debate....it is always bad. [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited May 21, 2001).]
Who cares what percentage of the population blacks represent!? If a man is more qualified then he should get that chance. Simple. It's sad that some coaches are given chance after chance to prove themselves and they always fail. Yet there are some coaches who constantly get passed over and never given the shot. I guess it's not all about winning is it? ------------------
I believe Kagy should rise up and censor himself for that crass O'Malley-esque statement, like he did Miggidy for posting a rap lyric on his first post. And jamcracker should apologize for getting personal. Jeff, you ignoring the racial slur and focusing only on jammie is only escalating this fight. Do you not see that? I make racial comments all the time, but Kagy is on record censoring them and demanding they never be made. That is not right Brian. And you know it.
It's sad that some coaches are given chance after chance to prove themselves and they always fail. This is, in my opinion, the biggest reason for the problem. Coaches just go in circles. 10 positions might open up, but 7 or 8 of them will be filled by the same people who were just fired. Franchises just don't seem to be willing to take risks with new coaches. For example, look at the recent trend with college basketball and all those little "semi-good" schools. One school's coach left, and that position got filled by the coach of another small school, which got filled by another small school's coach, etc (this involved Seton Hall, Butler I think, a few others). So while 4 or 5 positions opened up, only the last school in the chain actually hired a new coach. Or, take a look at the Wizards. They just hired a coach in Doug Collins who sucked at Detroit and Chicago. ------------------ http://www.swirve.com ... more fun than a barrel full of monkeys and midgets. [This message has been edited by shanna (edited May 21, 2001).]
It's kind of funny after reading this thread knowing that cracker sits next to a guy every Rocket game who likes to talk about "big ass black guys". ------------------ Rock Rock Til You Drop
yes, TheFreak, and jammie doesn't like me saying that. He flat out told me not to type it after that really, really fun NY game when we were winding down at his place. He thought it is outrageous, and we discussed it. That is what I said in my post above. My conviction to race matters is tolerance. I will say big ass black guy to describe someone, when I think it adds positive description. I will never censor someone for making any racial slurs. I actually think tolerance for them is healthy. But I am in a huge minority on that conviction. You all know Brian. I know Jamcracker. They don't know each other. Jamcracker can tolerate a racial slur from me, because he knows my convictions. Jamcracker does not know Brian's convictions. All he really knows is Brian is the most inflammatory person in the Hangout threads. What I think is outrageous in your classic pointing-out-the-hypocrasy-in-everything (like now), is the glaring hypocrasy in Kagy making an O'Malley statement, yet censoring and admonishing a first time poster for a rap lyric. Come on, TheFreak...give me your reknowned hangout objectivity here. This thread is exhibiting hypocrasy in black and white. An Admin in any medium cannot make racial slurs if he is going to make himself self-proclaimed censorship judge and jury for slurs. No need to guess where the hypocrasy is on this one. This is not a matter of degree. This is a matter of principle. [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited May 21, 2001).]
--- Who cares what percentage of the population blacks represent!? --- No one...sort of. The percentages are always referenced for demonstrative purposes. The assumption is that there will be a similar percentage of qualified people in each racial group. If the assumption is true, then in an unbiased world, a group that constitues X% of the applicants will also consitute the same X% of coaches. If the assumption is not accepted, then you enter a whole other debate that I don't wnat to touch. heyp - it's amazing how irrating some of your posts are and how refreshing others are. give me some consistency man! how am I supposed to get a read on you? [now how do you put in one of those damn smileys?] ------------------ **
The other lingering hypocrasy here (until Clutch says something) is that Clutch and I discussed posting my Commode Comments about the new zone rules, as a Kagy Keg Notes type article. <a href="http://www.flashlings.com/commode.html">First depostit of heypee's Commode Comments</a> Clutch told me that the board would react poorly to me saying, "They can't force white ball on 'Zo." So I changed it to: "They can't force Princeton ball on 'Zo," I am not saying Clutch was saying that was a racial slur, or even censoring me...he was simply telling me that I need not say that to still be funny. From my perspective, Clutch does not want ANY direct O'Malley-esque remarks on this board. Then why is Jeff and others ignoring those comments, when Clutch was warning me that my similar comments would produce a Jamcracker-esque response. I'll say it again, Kagy should rise up and censor his post and make an apology, or at least announce he will never censor a racial slur again. Knowing Jamcracker, he is probably trying to make some outrageous point with his personal slurs and will gladly back off with an apology, too. That is principle.
heyp, Kagy's probably in the midst of a Capital of Texas Hwy commute right now. I know I kind of make outrageous statements like that too from time to time (usually involving sex issues more than race, but that's besides the point). I don't think that he meant anything in a hateful manner... but I also completely understand jamcracker's venom. I'm still trying to regain my wife's respect after having overreacted to one of the Tectonics professors up at the U getting a sex change operation. I just don't see how 'Barbara' understands how to make the bedrock anymore, ba-dom-dom. ------------------ women love me, fish fear me.
Jeff you say timing but I have a problem when you look at guys like the guy in New Orleans. . who is WAY younger that Sherm Lewis. Hell look at Jeff fisher. . . he is like under 40? He played ball a few years? So he's been moving up the ranks since the 80s? Art shell moved up since near the 70s I think the thing is. . like shanna says It seems like teams trade coaches rather than find new blood [which is why the NFL SUCKS so badly . . .He the newest concept in coach which was HUGELY SUCCESSFUL was RUN OUT of the NFL - this being the Run in Shoot Offense say what ya want about the oilers of the time the offense put up the numbers . . . now there isn't even a modified version of it in the league] SH*T!! I forgot to not use the enter key today!!!! Rocket River next thread! ------------------
I have always found it interesting that many feel that the best response to racism is racism. To see extreme evidence of this, one need only look at the Cincy riots earlier this year when motorists were beaten because they were white after a white cop killed a black criminal. ------------------ You can't stick a porcupine in a barn, light it on fire, and expect to get licorice.
Three points: 1. Whether Kagy meant something in a hateful manner is not the issue. It is principle. He has taken the high road before and censored people. 2. I'm sure you are not the only one who understands jamcrackers venom towards Kagy, but who really understands Kagy's venom? 3. I'm sure Almu is not the only one with venom towards heypee, but that is basketball trash talking for smeggysakes, and many do it on this board (albeit in less volume than me) These Hangout debates are like daggers to the heart of people's strong convictions sometimes. There is a difference. Like Almu is really hurt that I think his "Jack" thread is the worst bball thread of the year, and mercilessly kept jabbing at him for it. Someone taking offense to BBall trash talking is not my problem; it is just a game. Trash talking people's personal beliefs in the Hangout can indeed be my problem. Ask yourself this, would you trash talk a stranger's personal beliefs at a casual party? Would you trash talk a stranger's bball beliefs at a casual party? I've made friends doing the latter. I've never made friends doing the former. Is there a difference here between Kagy's trash talking that jamcracker doesn't like and my trash talking that Almu does not like? What would Charles Barkley say? I wonder.
Notice the signature is indeed deleted by Kagy. I saw the post. I was Miggidy's very first post. He says "no harm done", but he didn't back off the censorship. So, Kagy should understand that if he is going to censor people for racial slurs, he needs to rise above racial slurs himself. Miggety used the N-word in his signature. Big difference between that and what Brian said. Before you go off on that, it was ME who asked that the N-word take its place on the banned words list right along curse words. It was Brian's use of that word that caused me to request it because I thought it was in poor taste and extremely inappropriate. Jeff, Kagy came straight out at told me to "Fick Off" for jokes in his racial thread that was in better taste than the one above. I think maybe you should just let him deal with jamcracker. Kagy shouldn't need your help. He doesn't and I'm not helping. I am simply stating what we all know about this board. Part of being on it is refraining from personal attacks. You know it as well as I do. It always has been Clutch's decision to restrict that because he feels it keeps conversation civil and I agree. My post was not to help Brian but to point out that what Jammie did was not kosher on this BBS. And, if you are so worried about fighting our own battles, perhaps you should allow Jammie to respond to me on his own without the benefit of your posts. But double-standard censoring is NOT a matter of debate....it is always bad. There is no double standard and there isn't even a censor. I have told everyone from ZRB to theOlajuwons to lay off the personal attacks before. I've even told Brian to cool it. It is part of being responsible for the BBS. Hell, I've been told it before! I did not censor anyone. I simply stated the obvious. There is a difference. I believe Kagy should rise up and censor himself for that crass O'Malley-esque statement, like he did Miggidy for posting a rap lyric on his first post. And jamcracker should apologize for getting personal. Jeff, you ignoring the racial slur and focusing only on jammie is only escalating this fight. Do you not see that? First off, I don't even know who O'Malley is so I don't have a clue as to what an O'Malley-esqe statement is. Second, Brian did not use a racial slur. He said something that could be construed as racist OR could simply be considered typical, conservative Brian rhetoric. I don't agree with everything he says but it is very consistent. He has pretty strong opinions about the free market and how it applies to hiring practices. He doesn't agree with racial quotas. His statement was totally in line with that belief. Whether you and I agree or not is immaterial. Argue with him on the issue if you want, but a racial slur is a direct assault on a particular race through specific statements. He didn't use the N-word and he didn't specifically denegrate any race. If anything, it could be argued that he denegrated white people for our lack of athleticism. I don't really agree with him, but that doesn't give any of us a right on this board to attack him the way Jammie did. What Jammie said WAS denegrating and rude. It was more reflective, in fact, of him than of Brian. Even rimbaud, not exactly a flag waver for conservative ideology, pointed that out to Jammie despite his consistent disagreements with BK. From my perspective, Clutch does not want ANY direct O'Malley-esque remarks on this board. Then why is Jeff and others ignoring those comments, when Clutch was warning me that my similar comments would produce a Jamcracker-esque response. Again with O'Malley... Anyway, I didn't even read your Commode Comments so I won't argue. I am not Clutch. His decisions are his and I will not second guess them because it is his house we are in. The point is that everyone knows that I am liberal and I don't always agree with Brian and his conservative ideologies, but I saw nothing inherently slur-ish about what he said. Like his usual comments, it was tinged with sarcasm and filled with words that put a very sharp point on his idea. But, it was not an n-word filled epithet or even a derogatory, denegrating statement. It was simply, like BK, conservative. However, Jammie's response was derogatory, denegrating and blatant. There is a difference - a significant one. You don't have to like the way things here are handled, but it is pretty clear. You cannot make personal attacks against other board members. I am the first to say it is wrong and against the rules whether it is BK or Jammie or anyone else. I know that there is a sentiment that Admins have rights to post things others don't. I've even agreed with it occassionally when the circumstances arose and pointed it out to the other Admis when it happened. However, this is not an instant that even remotely fits the characteristics of an Admin getting his way over the objections of others. ------------------ The internet is about the free exchange and sale of other people's ideas. - Futurama
These Hangout debates are like daggers to the heart of people's strong convictions sometimes. There is a difference. Like Almu is really hurt that I think his "Jack" thread is the worst bball thread of the year, and mercilessly kept jabbing at him for it. Well, that is your MO on this board. Just like in this thread, you get hung up on a subject and harp on it until you get bored. Someone taking offense to BBall trash talking is not my problem; it is just a game. Trash talking people's personal beliefs in the Hangout can indeed be my problem. Almu has every right to feel hurt by your attacks. Perhaps basketball is important to him like racisim is important to Jammie or me or whoever. It is not for you to decide that Almu's feelings are irrelavent because it deals with a subject you view as open to criticism. That is pretty selfish and insensitive. Ask yourself this, would you trash talk a stranger's personal beliefs at a casual party? Would you trash talk a stranger's bball beliefs at a casual party? I've made friends doing the latter. I've never made friends doing the former. Frankly, I wouldn't do either. That's like walking up to a musician after a gig and saying, "Man, you guys really sucked. I hate that kind of music." It's a good way to get your ass kicked. Is there a difference here between Kagy's trash talking that jamcracker doesn't like and my trash talking that Almu does not like? Yes, because his "trash talking," if it was even that, wasn't directed at Jamcracker. It was a general comment that was in line with his beliefs that are well known here. What would Charles Barkley say? I wonder. Probably that we are all a bunch of geeks for having an argument about racism on a freakin' bulletin board instead of actually doing something about it in the real world. ------------------ The internet is about the free exchange and sale of other people's ideas. - Futurama
Watch who you're calling a geek, Jeff. Let's not get the geeks riled up as well. ------------------ I always thought "With my talent, it's only a matter of time before I'm discovered". Now I think "With my talent, it's only a matter of time before I'm found out".
As far as I know there's only one geek on this board, the rest are just pretenders... ------------------ I refuse to use smiley's in my posts, you'll just have to figure out how serious I am on your own...
That's funny, BGM, but have you met any of these guys? Maybe it's you that is the pretender. ------------------ I always thought "With my talent, it's only a matter of time before I'm discovered". Now I think "With my talent, it's only a matter of time before I'm found out".
here we go, playing the game of pulling quotes out one at a time... You really think he is hurt? You now; I didn't ever attack him. He was talking about me attacking others. Give me an objective read man, or you are being subjective. Don't compare basketball trash talking to race issues; that is absurd. And don't say a rap lyric is worse than an O'Malley comment. That is absurd. And I think the n word being censored is a personal issue, anyway. I think it is absurd for it to be in the bbs word filter. It does not solve anything, but make Jeff feel like this board is a more civil place. Jeff, I'm not saying your use a double standard. Do you think I'm talking about you? I am talking about Kagy being the censor. He did most definitely censor Miggidy Markel. And n-word or not, you know when you see a rap lyric...and those things are not censored. But, white men can't play sports is often censored. Plus, it is completely outrageous for you or anyone to declare something is not a slur when the world of PC has already declared it such. Kagy's comments is recognized as a slur in the world of PC....most definitely. [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited May 21, 2001).]
