What do you think is the purpose of life/ what keeps you going?

danny317 · Sep 12, 2007

crisis (should have paid more attention to spelling in elementary school)

crazyguypete · Sep 12, 2007

Invisible Fan said:

I think if God exists then he's probably a non-interfering architect. Maybe all our close shaves are a matter of luck. On the other hand, I don't think it's lazy thinking or ignorance to believe that God had a role in the things you've achieved. If that's the case, then God has shown Himself.

Maybe I'm wrong here but a non-interfering architect is not the God of Christianity. If that is the case why pray? He isn't going to interfere. Furthermore, if God had a role in things I've achieved then he is an interfering architect.

You also wrote Invisible Fan (how do you put multiple quotes in a response thread),

"The God of the Gaps argument is a good rebuttal."

I actually was unaware of this argument but after a little research it does enforce in my opinion the issue of stopping knowledge. Its like saying we can't explain that well we'll just say God did it. Its an answer that cuts off people's curiosity. Worse what happens when science gives you an explanation? Simply say, "Oh, OK science explains that but everything else that we can't explain its God." Thats like defining God as equal to I don't know.

Invisible Fan says, "Personally, I sidestep the issue by respecting other people's beliefs as long as they came to their conclusion themselves and they're not actively interfering with my beliefs through aggressive tactics."

I disagree here. I do agree there is nothing more annoying than people who come up to you trying to spread God or even atheism. But I do think its important to discuss your opinion and beliefs. Joseph Campbell said,"If you ever want to understand your religion, study anothers."(paraphrasing here). If we do not have an open dialogue about what we believe in and why its true or false I think that leads to blind faith and ignorance, which most people would argue is not a good thing.

Invisible Fan says,"I don't think the universe is checking and balancing itself with zero sum values. First thing to know about life is that none of this will make any sense. Even with numbers, there are values that you just have to accept for what they are.

Now for your proposal, what if the government took you to some lab and subjected you to testing for my survival? Is that pursuit of knowledge still worthy under your personal ethics?

Does a country with no water, power, infrastructure or agricultural base need an elaborate university system for it's 20 year goal? Priorities are subjective. Who you are and the circumstances you grew up in have shaped your personal ethics and values.

Something to think about for morality and ethics."

What you just described here is a form of utilitarianism (the testing me statement) I believe but I was not saying that. I think testing on human beings is not a good idea b/c it sets a precedence. It means future human beings can be tested as well and the next thing you know the ones not being tested are those who have the most power (A form of Might makes Right). Knowledge to me is the highest "virtue" (if you can call it that). But knowledge at the sake of everything else is dangerous as well. Moderation is important.

Your comment about the university is an interesting one. I think initially some things may take precedence over knowledge. If your in college and you have to pay your way through you may sacrifice some classes, some knowledge at the time, because you have to work to have a roof over your head and some food in your belly. But if you don't get that degree you will for eternity be stuck in a rat race. So initially perhaps knowledge is not necessary to get things started but eventually without knowledge how can you progress.

Also, in my example, how does one get a job, any job? by getting knowledge in something. How does one get water, power, etc. in your example? By having knowledge in these fields. So even in your example survival is based on knowledge, its simply as the society becomes more complex so must the knowledge.

Invisible Fan says,"I maintain the belief that science and religion are not mutually exclusive in the pursuit of knowledge and improving the quality of life."

I never said science and religion are mutually exclusive events. Paul Davies is an example that they are not. It is however true that most scientist are not religious people. I tried finding exactly where I got this information from but I can't for the life of me remember the source. I did read it somewhere though. (I know thats not saying a lot). I do feel though religion gets in the way of science sometimes, say in Stem Cell Research.

Invisible Fan says,"If you equate knowledge with gained experiences, some experiences you don't need to know in order to improve yourself, like spending a month in jail or coping with an STD."

This is true. But i bet you someone with time in jail and someone with an STD understands what it is to have those things better than one who does not. You can appreciate your freedom in society when you are free but I think you have a better grasp of what it is to be free when you have that stripped from you.

As for the Genesis comment, its kinda a contradiction to me though. B/c they do bad by disobeying God and then are given the ability to chose Good and Bad? I don't understand that either. But my whole point is why would God not allow choice in good and bad to exist? Why is that bad?

Invisible Fan says,"I don't think there is a universal truth, but there is personal truth. You could narrow down that pursuit of all knowledge and focus upon finding that. I mean learning and discovering things is also a way for a fulfilling life to many, but dictating that as the truth is as productive as telling people they will go to hell if they don't submit."

I disagree here adamantly. I think there are both universal and personal truths. I think there is a way the world works, whether we can understand that is a different question. But it does exist! People have different interests and desires but I do think the question of life and why we do what we do and why we should do what we should do is a question we should all dig deep down inside and try to understand so that we can be as honest as possible with ourselves. Even if its not possible.

One last comment Invisible Fan b/c I have spent the past hour and half writing a response to you. I actually think you and I are more or less on the same playing ground. Remember I said I'm agnostic. I'm just being honest with myself. I honestly can't say whether God exists or doesn't. Religion is a different issue than God. But as for God, who knows? Hell, how do you even define God?
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crazyguypete · Sep 12, 2007

MadMax said:

I like how you said this thread's main point was really about the purpose of life, and then wrote an essay on whether God exists.

I believe in God. He's my purpose. I won't try to convince you of Him with fancy lawyer talk or the words of philosophers I admire. I would encourage you to never stop wrestling with this question. You're absolutely right that you shouldn't take His existence at face value without wrestling with it. Go to churches where people really, truly believe and live their lives in service of others.

I love Jesus...I'm not cool with religion, either.

By the way...Socrates believed in God.
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I know it is a joke MadMax but I don't think you can have a discussion of the meaning of life without discussing God, and if you are not in the majority and don't believe in God (or uncertain about God as I am) you better have a darn (is the other version of this considered a curse word?) good reason why you don't or are uncertain. Thats why I went at length to describe why? (That was the short version too, I could go on forever with it if you like ).

As for Socrates and his belief in God, I know... he was a cool guy

crazyguypete · Sep 12, 2007

Pascal's Wager is a common reason why people belief in God. The first time I heard it I loved it because it is soooo incredibly logical. However, my issue is that we can't control what we believe and a God that would rather have us lie to ourselves and believe in God b/c the odds are in our favor then be honest with ourselves is a God i rather stay away from.

crazyguypete · Sep 12, 2007

I said about Pascal that its a common reason why people believe in God but its not. Its a way of reinforcing why people should believe in God.

famicom · Sep 12, 2007

Lil Pun said:

To bang as many hot chicks as possible.
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A religion based on this theory already exists...it's called Kempionism.

Founded by Father Shawn, mentor of Travis Henry.

DonkeyMagic · Sep 12, 2007

famicom said:

A religion based on this theory already exists...it's called Kempionism.

Founded by Father Shawn, mentor of Travis Henry.
Click to expand...

...brother of shawn kemp

DaDakota · Sep 12, 2007

DonkeyMagic said:

...brother of shawn kemp
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Reading comprehension skills slipping on you Burro?

NewYorker · Sep 12, 2007

I find people's desire to know if their is a god or not intriguing...because it's neither possible to prove or disprove. It's probably better to believe in god, because you're likely to be happier if you feel that there's some reason for all your hardships and some sort of cosmic justice.

I find Joseph Campbell fascinating though and recommend him to anyone who's interested in spirituality and how common our beliefs really are.

Invisible Fan · Sep 12, 2007

crazyguypete said:

Maybe I'm wrong here but a non-interfering architect is not the God of Christianity. If that is the case why pray? He isn't going to interfere. Furthermore, if God had a role in things I've achieved then he is an interfering architect.
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For Christians, praying would be acknowledging God's influence in our lives. Personally, I think about the actively/non-interfering question a lot. Do things happen just because, or is there a path set out for me to take?

IMO, there's no right or wrong answer in choosing your worldview. It's not like there's a road less traveled. Religious people do hype up the stakes, but it's still your choice.

crazyguypete said:

You also wrote Invisible Fan (how do you put multiple quotes in a response thread),
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I paste ]QUOTE=crazyguypete[ to start and ]/quote[ to end (reverse the brackets).

crazyguypete said:

"The God of the Gaps argument is a good rebuttal."

I actually was unaware of this argument but after a little research it does enforce in my opinion the issue of stopping knowledge. Its like saying we can't explain that well we'll just say God did it. Its an answer that cuts off people's curiosity. Worse what happens when science gives you an explanation? Simply say, "Oh, OK science explains that but everything else that we can't explain its God." Thats like defining God as equal to I don't know.
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Whether you're scientific or religious, the end of your curiosity depends on your personal desire or ambition. It's like pursuing a woman. If you get burned, then you can dismiss it as fate and not try again. Maybe you try again with better success. Then you can call that fate as well. As for science, if it answered all with definite ease, we'd still be using Newton and only Newton for our gravitational laws.

The God of the Gaps argument applies to the simple folk who don't read books and let others tell them what to believe. There are a lot of religious people who push further and deeper while acknowledging that our pool of knowledge is a drop in comprehending God.

crazyguypete said:

I disagree here. I do agree there is nothing more annoying than people who come up to you trying to spread God or even atheism. But I do think its important to discuss your opinion and beliefs. Joseph Campbell said,"If you ever want to understand your religion, study anothers."(paraphrasing here). If we do not have an open dialogue about what we believe in and why its true or false I think that leads to blind faith and ignorance, which most people would argue is not a good thing.
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I agree.

Some people could say our discussion is an argument and could be viewed as aggression. I think respectful discourse, even heated ones, is one of the best ways for people to exchange ideas and get along. My idea of aggressive tactics would be through legislating or censoring ideas because they threaten mine, plus the obvious violent kind.

crazyguypete said:

What you just described here is a form of utilitarianism (the testing me statement) I believe but I was not saying that. I think testing on human beings is not a good idea b/c it sets a precedence. It means future human beings can be tested as well and the next thing you know the ones not being tested are those who have the most power (A form of Might makes Right). Knowledge to me is the highest "virtue" (if you can call it that). But knowledge at the sake of everything else is dangerous as well. Moderation is important.
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My point is that knowledge, like science or religion, is a tool. A tool can not discriminate moral or ethical usages. So it's hard to define knowledge as a virtue or something that holds a positive connotation because it depends on who is using that knowledge. Nobel invented dynamite for the purpose of construction and transforming the nature around us. Yet its best known for its destructive capabilities.

And while moderation is important, shouldn't we find virtues and maximize them? What's wrong with loving a little more or learning a little more? Can you justify means if the end result is a lot more 'virtue' than when you started?

crazyguypete said:

Your comment about the university is an interesting one. I think initially some things may take precedence over knowledge. If your in college and you have to pay your way through you may sacrifice some classes, some knowledge at the time, because you have to work to have a roof over your head and some food in your belly. But if you don't get that degree you will for eternity be stuck in a rat race. So initially perhaps knowledge is not necessary to get things started but eventually without knowledge how can you progress.
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Another example to my point is the principle of evolution. It teaches that there is no ultimate being, and the only end result, if there is one, is extinction. So while we think intelligence is a superior trait, it could very well have resulted from lucky circumstances. If intelligent humans were to evolve during the time of the dinosaurs, it would probably would've been outcompeted and eaten up by more aggressive animals. That extra capacity of knowledge might not have been useful for the circumstances, and therefore we would've been unfit in terms of evolution.

Knowledge is a powerful trait to acquire in our mindset because our environment and background is from a rich industrialized country. The gains for prioritizing higher knowledge in poorer economies is generally not as productive as an equal expenditure in infrastructural needs. While implementing this requires knowledge, the service provided is more tangible (water,power, food) than the abstract qualities of knowledge.

crazyguypete said:

Also, in my example, how does one get a job, any job? by getting knowledge in something. How does one get water, power, etc. in your example? By having knowledge in these fields. So even in your example survival is based on knowledge, its simply as the society becomes more complex so must the knowledge.
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I think your definition of knowledge is too broad. If experience is knowledge, then doing nothing can be seen as gaining knowledge such as learning patience, or the cause for your subsequent failure.

crazyguypete said:

I did read it somewhere though. (I know thats not saying a lot). I do feel though religion gets in the way of science sometimes, say in Stem Cell Research.
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From an ethical perspective, if embryos are human lives, then pursuing embryonic SCR would be based upon a utilitarian mindset.

Moderation is key, right?

crazyguypete said:

This is true. But i bet you someone with time in jail and someone with an STD understands what it is to have those things better than one who does not. You can appreciate your freedom in society when you are free but I think you have a better grasp of what it is to be free when you have that stripped from you.
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Once learned twice shy. But there a lot of people who go to jail only to tell others how not to get there once they have been released. They do so to let people not learn the hard way, which can be similar to religious speakers if you consider their mindset.

crazyguypete said:

As for the Genesis comment, its kinda a contradiction to me though. B/c they do bad by disobeying God and then are given the ability to chose Good and Bad? I don't understand that either. But my whole point is why would God not allow choice in good and bad to exist? Why is that bad?
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Yeah, I had to break from the traditional interpretation because of the same questions. On one hand Christians tout Free Will as the ultimate representation of God's Love. Yet Original Sin is derived from that Free Will. God loves you enough for you to stray into His Hell as punishment? Hmm...

I look at the Genesis story with Nozik's Experience Machine. In it you're given a choice between the Matrix but infinitely better, or not plugging in and living your 'real life'. Wrt Genesis, the caveat would be that once you're plugged in, you can't plug out.

Most people who answer this would not plug in because they value their "real experiences" more than any fulfillment of virtual fantasy. In a sense, we see that proven because only a small minority are hooked to highly addictive narcotics.

Now you can ask, what if Eve gave the apple to Adam because it was worth experiencing, and not because she was thought to be an irrational, selfish, and foolish woman?

crazyguypete said:

I disagree here adamantly. I think there are both universal and personal truths. I think there is a way the world works, whether we can understand that is a different question. But it does exist! People have different interests and desires but I do think the question of life and why we do what we do and why we should do what we should do is a question we should all dig deep down inside and try to understand so that we can be as honest as possible with ourselves. Even if its not possible.
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I think God exists. Not sure how I can prove it without sounding like a loon.

I also think a lot of people would agree to your point in the context of their search of God in their lives.

crazyguypete said:

One last comment Invisible Fan b/c I have spent the past hour and half writing a response to you. I actually think you and I are more or less on the same playing ground. Remember I said I'm agnostic. I'm just being honest with myself. I honestly can't say whether God exists or doesn't. Religion is a different issue than God. But as for God, who knows? Hell, how do you even define God?
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I think so too. I replied this much to share my views because figuring out God/life is one of my free hobbies that not a lot of people my age share.

What do I think of God when I believe God exists? At the very least, God is all around us. We could be mere parts of a larger body. Are blood cells in our image...Well, they hold the potential to be.

On a bad day, I look around outside with my crummy mood , take a deep breath of the surroundings and tell myself, "This is God. The good and the bad." I'm not sure if I'm being earnest or sarcastic, but that's a personal truth to me.

People do say God is love because I guess it's the 2nd most indescribable thing. But I think God and miracles are much more simpler than an act or wonder. The good stuff is all around us along with the bad. But only through trudging through Hell do you appreciate Heaven more.

professorjay · Sep 12, 2007

ClutchFans BBS.

MR. MEOWGI · Sep 12, 2007

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rhester · Sep 12, 2007

Religion- Man's attempt to find God.

Jesus Christ- God's attempt to find man.

rhester · Sep 12, 2007

It's not so hard to believe that Jesus Christ is connected to God, it is much harder to look at the mess of this world and believe that God is connected to Jesus Christ.

rhester · Sep 12, 2007

Conscience is universal and measurable.

rhester · Sep 12, 2007

"And this is the meaning of life—to know the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one He sent to earth" - Jesus Christ

John 17:3 (RHV)

Dubious · Sep 12, 2007

1. Survive
2. Procreate
3. Evolve

Existence is physical fact with no metaphysical explanation. We are no different than bacteria or amoebas except we have evolved in intelligence and consciousness as a survival technique There is no point, there is no purpose. But, there is no alternative. I'd guess a lot of people might prefer oblivion, but there is no way of knowing and no coming back.

Deckard · Sep 12, 2007

crazyguypete said:

Deckard I have been around people who do get tired of life. I have been around those who would want nothing more than to die. Hell, I knew someone very close to me who killed themselves. So while life to you is not a chore, for others it is. To me it sounds like you have an enjoyment in life. You like the idea of being alive vs death. If i prefer life to death then i see that as I like living vs dying. Which to me is hedonism b/c you are essentially saying (at least to me) life brings me more happiness than death. I apologize if what I said was offensive, that was not my intent. I am not saying you are a hedonist, just your response to this question is a hedonistic response (to me).
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I'm not offended, but amused. I think you are using the word far too freely. I just don't see a preference to living versus dying to be hedonistic. If that is the case, the word has lost all meaning.

D&D. Impeach the Living Embodiment of the Peter Principal.

crazyguypete · Sep 12, 2007

NewYorker said:

I find people's desire to know if their is a god or not intriguing...because it's neither possible to prove or disprove. It's probably better to believe in god, because you're likely to be happier if you feel that there's some reason for all your hardships and some sort of cosmic justice.

I find Joseph Campbell fascinating though and recommend him to anyone who's interested in spirituality and how common our beliefs really are.
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I think the more we look at things the better we understand them. So the pursuit of God or of religion or of some sort of philosophy to explain life will bring something. Perhaps not what you ultimately want but something. The thing about belief though is that you can't just believe. We don't operate like that. There is a reason why you believe in what you believe. My philosophical journey has concluded that most concepts of God are not true, so its hard for me to believe in a God but the alternative is just as difficult.

rhester · Sep 12, 2007

Dubious said:

1. Survive
2. Procreate
3. Evolve

Existence is physical fact with no metaphysical explanation. We are no different than bacteria or amoebas except we have evolved in intelligence and consciousness as a survival technique There is no point, there is no purpose. But, there is no alternative. I'd guess a lot of people might prefer oblivion, but there is no way of knowing and no coming back.
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Survival is a moral choice.
Procreate is a moral choice.
Evolve, taking place in humans? No physical fact with no observable explanation.

There is no point, there is no purpose. But, there is no alternative. That implies moral choice. You can purpose or not purpose, you can mean something or have no point. Alternatives are choices.

To act as if life has no meaning is no different than acting as if life has meaning. Just two choices made based upon one's own moral compass.

Conscience dictates our moral compass.

You have an intellect, call it a soul or a spirit or consciousness and within that intellect you are and therefore you choose.

Trying to escape meaning in life is like holding your breath, hold your breath, that doesn't mean there isn't any air. Attempting to live without point or purpose only lasts until you make the next moral choice.

If you stop at red lights you have made a moral choice. The list is endless, moral choices define purpose and reveal conscience.

It is your conscience that causes you to slow down when a highway patrol car pulls out right behind you on the freeway. It is your conscience that causes you slam on the brakes when a child chases a ball into the street in front of your car.

Intelligence doesn't work without conscience.

That's why intelligence crumbles when conscience is damaged.

That's why it is stupid to torture another human or to traffic in child p*rn or to fly a plane into a building full of innocent people. Because when the conscience is damaged or darkened or twisted- the result is always unintelligent actions.

I find it hard to separate conscience, motives and actions. They define intelligence. Survival can be a selfish motivation or an unselfish motivation. Those are moral distinctions.

It is the moral conscience of man that God is interested; He calls it the heart. That is the place where love, faith and relationship exist.

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