A few months ago, you were totally gung-ho about trading Francis for Miller. You even started a new thread about it ("Enough is enough, let's trade Francis for Andre Miller - Who's with me?" ... or something like that). What happened since then to change your mind?
I like Jaric, but not if it means trading Francis. Not that I am not willing to trade Francis, but the offer has to be big, even bigger than Jaric & Odom. Throw in one/both of the Clips' number ones and then at least LISTEN to the offer. What about Griffin for Jaric, Odom & either the 8th/13th? What about a three way w/Cleveland? They have holes all over and they have a guard, Miller, who would be a nice fit. Houston has Mobley, KT, Rice & the 15th. As long as Houston comes away with some combo of Odom & a first round pick/Diop/Jaric. Roster would look like: Ming/Diop Francis/Mooch Jaric/OT Odom/TMo MoT/Cato And if Steve balks at the Mobe trade or Ming pick - trade him to Chicago for their 1st & 2nd plus Curry/1st next draft.
Jerry, and Jesus certainly looked different against Seattle when Duncan wasn't manning the middle. The perimeter shots are a bit harder without an inside threat.
He's so good, he wants about 3-4 mill from a nba team. If you think about trading Francis, which the Rockets are not, you better get some players. Now if the clipps cough up Odom and the 8 i might be willing to listen, but i don't think that will happen.
I simply believe that Francis and Cat are vastly overated by people on this BBS. They are NOT superstar caliber players. They are both very good street players who are also very good NBA individual players. Neither one of them has one iota of understanding what it takes to win in the NBA, they are selfish, don't play defense and continue to make boneheaded plays in their 3rd and 4th years in the league respectivly. The ONLY reason I would not trade Francis for Miller is that I HOPE that Francis can get better whereas I think Miller has peaked. If Francis does not learn how to be a better team player then I would rather have a Miller at PG then Steve. I don't know why people think trading your best player for equal ability is a bad thing. I am not sold on Cat and Steve in the backcourt, they are just not all that great, especially the way they both play terrible defense. If you are going to keep them both, then you HAVE to take Ming as he will shut down the layup drill that Francis and Mobley give up game after game. DaDakota
Mobley doesn't play terrible defense. Andre Miller is not an equal talent to Francis. And the thought that Cat and Francis don't know what it takes to succeed, but you do, is laughable at best.
Pued, I am just voicing my opinion. I don't have much faith in Francis and Mobley and their abilities to GM a team, or to win a championship. I personally believe that they are VERY interested in looking good, and getting their shots, and would LOVE to hang out with Lamar Odom, as he would fit in chemistry wise with those 2 straight away. However, that is not IMHO what is best for the team, our biggest hole on the team is at the 5 spot, and there is a 5 available who MAY be a great player. Odom is a good player, but he does not have the upside that Ming does. I say screw the dynamic duos little plans and draft what is best for the team...MING. I also think that Miller is every bit as good as Francis is right now....but he is not as athletic, but above the shoulders he makes Francis look like a grade school player. Francis and Mobley need to be more humble and less worried about getting theirs.....look at what Mobley said when asked on Fox....he said...that Odom does not need the ball....which implies that only he and Francis should get it....pathetic. The Rockets would be better off with Francis and Mobes averaging under 20 points and upping their assist totals, just look at the Nets or the Kings, or the Mavericks. DaDakota
DD, I'm not going to say overrated just other players are underrated. You don't know how many times I've talked about Davis,Miller, Nash and some of the other pg and all people want to say is Francis upside is higher which i don't beleive. If you look at it Francis is pretty much in the same boat as Marbury without the attitude. Regardless to the fact that he scores 20 and drops 8 asst, people will never forget the fact he wanted to leave a big man in Garnett. If you just compare the two, you'll see the difference big time. If the Nets had a healthy Kittles Van horn and Martin and a signed Mcculooch would they make the playoffs with marbury? Probably so. Posters will look at Miller and say his team hasn't had a decent record, well look at Davis who had to play half the yr with out their leading scorer and the playoffs without him also and still made it to the 2nd rd. Lets not forget he played with plantar fascitis also, but Steve has a higher upside ven though Davis just turned 22 or 23 at most. Steve is not overrated, i just don'y think he's any better than Miller,Davis,Marbury,or Nash. Its Payton then Kidd then its every other pg after that with the above mentioned all lumped together. then when people propose trade ideas and offer Cato and Collier, they sy a decent young center that can shoot or atheletic or something. If they are as good as people describe why are we getting rid of them? Lets face it. If Francis was as good as people say, this wouldn't be our 3rd time in lotto land with him at the helm. He's a good player, but he's not top 10 maybe barely 15 of players inthe league. Sure he does a lot for this team, but i remember a hill packing a sorry det team to the playoffs, yet he's overrated. He has time to understand the pg spot and seem willing, but somethings about playing the point just has to be inside, it can't be taught. Maybe he has it or maybe he doesn't but we will soon find out. If he's not happy playing with a good big man, then it might be marbury all over again. Looking at that, Minny has continued to make the playoffs while Marbury hasn't made it since.
Leeb, Well said. I think Francis is a star, but not a superstar player. He is no Jordan, Hakeem, Magic, Bird, Isiah, Duncan, Shaq, or Kobe. He is a good player, but a SUPERSTAR can lead a bad team to the playoffs. At Francis' age MJ was averaging 37 ppg. I hardly think Francis is even in the same league. I think the Rockets need a dominant big man to compliment Francis and Mobley, I also think that Mobley and Francis are worried about that because they feel it would take the spot light away from them. Both Mobley and Francis have yet to prove they are anything but selfish, ball hogging, no defense playing, one on one players. If they ever learn to play basketball they may be something but they have both had at least 3 years in the NBA, and have YET to prove it. I think they are bad for each other as they both just pump each other up, and seem to not be working on their own faults as ball players. I think Francis is a great athlete, but in his head, he is still at San Jac. DaDakota
Just a question..........when y'all bring in the arguements of one player having more "potential" or "upside" than another.....what's it exactley that you're talking about? Mentally, physically? Just wondering because all these young players are so naturally gifted........so it has to come down to the mental talents right?
Guess it was a good thing that the Sacremento Kings did not follow this advice when they traded for Mike Bibby........ DaDakota
It does all boil down to mental talents....when I say Steve has more upside, it means that when his MENTAL understanding of the game finally comes around (if ever) he can be better because he is a better athlete. However, there are a lot of players that the bell never goes off for, and they never reach their peak because of a lack of work (ala Robert Horry) or mental strength (ala Derick Cheivous). Francis is playing on mostly guts and athleticism, while Miller is playing on Guile and court savvy. Guile and savvy last longer then athleticism, however if you can ever get a great athlete to get the mental portion, then you have a superstar (ala Dream or Jordan). I just hope that Steve gets there, but he has not shown it in 3 years yet...and I think Mobley may never show it. (I would love to be wrong here). DaDakota
dada- sacramento didn't trade their best player, they gave away "white chocolate" for mike bibby, hardly a star. those 2 situatons are apples to oranges. you're talking about trading our best for a lesser player.
BigM, Your whole point was that Miller is not that great because he did not lead the Cavs..... I am only saying LOOK at trading Steve, and I happen to think that Odom is as good as Steve so I think it is a wash talent wise. As for Steve for Miller, I would not do that one, but would not lose sleep if the Rocks did it. DaDakota
That is a very pathetic comparison. MJ is probably the greatest player to ever play the game. Plus, he was a SG and really the only big scoring option on his team. Of course he's going to average more than a PG with other good scorers around him. When it's all said and done, Steve may or may not be among the great ones. Right now, after making the all-star team, it looks like he could be at least a superstar. As far as trading the Franchise, why, with all the options the Rockets have going into this offseason/draft, just tear apart the rebuilding job they've done so far and the chemistry and start all over. You could trade Steve for Andre Miller and Kevin Garnett, and this team still might not go deep in the playoffs the first year. It takes some time for teams to grow together. It takes time to build a champion. It won't be done by ripping the foundation apart every time you're not satisfied at the end of a season.
it wasn't meant for my point to be that andre isn't a great player because i think he's excellent. what i'm trying to say is we'd be giving up someone who i think can carry a team for someone who can't. andre doing less with his team than steve in a far easier conference is what i base this on.
