[Western Conf. 1st Round] Denver Nuggets vs. NO Hornets

Exactly! The blowout win over the Honey Bees was no big deal at all and I was worried too many people got their hopes up because of it. The game that really exposed the Spurs to me was their late-season home game against Portland. The Spurs were on fumes the final 3 quarters and the Blazers would have won by 30 if they weren't so bumbling on the road.

Regarding CP, he is still a great player but remains a notch below the Big 3. Maybe he breaks through that ceiling some day but I have my doubts. I dislike him strongly but still thinks he's the best PG in the NBA by a smidgen over D-Will. After game 7 against the Spurs last season and last night's disaster, CP has tarnished his image. He needs to go out blazing tomorrow night.

 

Umm yeah no way a T-mac for Paul and West deal will happen.

 

This isn't even worth discussing, IMO. Not only would this be insanely idiotic but New Orleans doesn't deserve to have a team if they pulled off a move like this. I'm not even exaggerating. Trade a top three player for an expiring contract? Really? Hell, why stop at CP3 when we could have LeBron? Right?! T-Mac for Paul/West is almost equally ridiculous, BTW.

The Gasol trade was an anomaly. It completely distorted the Western Conference and tremendously shifted the power in favor of the Lakers. They went from a 42-win team that Kobe couldn't get out of the first round (minus Shaq) to an NBA Finals team. It's pretty much irrefutable that this trade shouldn't have happened and that it was insanely one-sided. Lesson learned. Plus, even though Gasol is one of the best big men in the league I still have a hard time placing him on CP3's level.

If, and that's a pretty big "if", Shinn had one of the biggest lapses of judgment in NBA history and decided to shop CP3 you damn well better believe it's not because he doesn't feel the need to pay Paul, but rather his reluctance to keep one of his many albatross contracts (Peja, Chandler, Mo Pete). Paul + Peja for second-tier star/youth/picks would be the only logical way to be stupid, in this case.

 

I highly doubt it myself. The contracts for both of those players aren't bad at all. But again, Chandler and Peja are owed big bucks over the next two seasons (combined $54M), and the only way I can see a team taking either one of them is if they are included in a deal with Paul or West. Neither guys production warrants that large salary, and both guys are injury prone.

It all just depends on whether or not the owner wants to really shed salary, and if he thinks the current team can contend. Considering that he already tried to give away Chandler I think he is going to want to dump salary, especially after a first round out. How can he justify having so much $$ tied into the current roster? I didn't realize how much he owes those 4 players...damn near the whole cap ($49M next season).

 

Agreed on the Hornets not needing to trade West. I was just dreamcasting a bit with the suggested idea of dealing with New Orleans. West's contract is pretty much IDEAL for a player of his ability: $7-9M/year until 11/12 when he'll be 31-years-old. At that point he'll probably start declining a bit but he'll be a FA that you can lock into a deal cheaper than that.

I don't know. Agreed NO shouldn't blow things up just for the sake of blowing things up, but there is something dangerously wrong with this team. Nobody is going to take on Peja, Chandler or Mo Pete's contracts without some incentive. I would hope Shinn is smart enough not to even consider shopping CP3, which leaves West and his fair contract as the only real attractive/realistic trading chip the Hornets have. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he got dealt this summer.

 

Neither does Memphis, but they still have one, right. Didn't our very own Rockets trade away Moses Malone in his peak because we didn't want to pay him? Dumping star players because you don't want to pay them is not a new trend.

Didn't the Grizz trade a top PF for expiring contracts and draft picks? Why...because their owner is cheap and didn't want to pay. If Shinn goes that route then the only way he can get rid of Chandler or Peja is to also include Paul or West. FYI, I also believe I stated there was like no chance for Paul to be shipped out. But it's silly to say it's idiotic when we just had an owner ship off a top player for nothing last season because they wanted to save money.

It really wasn't. Star players have been shipped off before. How did LA get Kareem? Why did we ship off Moses? Why didn't Boston keep KG? Why didn't the Sonics/Thunder keep Ray Allen? Why was B.Diddy shipped away to Golden State? All situations of owners not wanting to pay dudes.

I believe I already stated that. Additionally, you have to PAY a 2nd tier star. You don't have to pay an expiring contract past that current season. It's the same reason the Grizz didn't want a 2nd tier star for Gasol.

 

Your argument is essentially "Hey, it happened with Gasol...why not CP3 too?". This would work for me if the Gasol trade wasn't widely panned and considered a costly mistake for the entire conference, let alone the ineptitude of the Grizzlies alone. Plus, let's not forget the negative stigma Gasol used to get putting up 20-10 on those perennial doormat Grizzlies teams. There were plenty that considered him just a pretend star putting up monster numbers on a terrible team. Only when he was traded to LA, and consequently bolstered the Lakers into an entire new stratosphere, have people started to realize how good Gasol really is. Myself, included. Nobody is questioning Paul's greatness or status as [easily] a top five player which makes this notion even harder to digest.

The KG trade is not even remotely similar (star past his prime/team sick of mediocrity so they decide to hit "reset"). Plus, Al Jefferson is a legit building block that's probably already better than KG. Funny you mention this because in the unlikely event CP3 gets dealt, the package Minnesota received in return for KG is exactly like what New Orleans would need to receive in return if they do, indeed, expect to be taken seriously and have cause enough to justify this move.

Ray Allen does not belong in this conversation. Nor does Baron Davis (mediocrity/injuries/work ethic issues). Admittedly, the Moses and Kareem situations were a little before my time so I cannot speak intelligently on those issues. If what you're stating is correct, it wouldn't surprise me. It just further backs my point that you're reaching a bit (going back to the 70's-80's, citing bad examples in Allen/Davis) to support your point that it's not just Gasol that's been dealt for crap in order for cheap owners to avoid paying their stars.

And let's not be naive here. Even the cheapest of owners still can and will allow a max contract or two. Having this perception as a cheap owner doesn't automatically disqualify you from ever having a star player on a max contract.

 

No, my argument is that owners trading players they don't want to pay is not a new trend. The Gasol trade was just the latest, and one of the worst cases for the reasons you have already noted. You are making the Gasol trade out to be a once in a lifetime BS trade, and that isn't the case. The ramifications aren't always as strong...but that wasn't the first time a dude was shipped out by a cheap ass owner.

Yeah, but that doesn't mean they want to. How many max contracts does Memphis currently have? No one said Shinn would want to clean house. But it's silly to say it's idiotic for someone to fathom the idea when you have examples of owners clearing house...as recent as last season. Shinn is in a perfect scenario to want to get rid of players, as he has two dudes making near max money and they don't produce like it. Tack in the poor economy onto that and the fact that the team is going nowhere. Or that he supposedly wants to get out of NO anyway and is losing $$ there.

Unless Shinn wants to have like 75% of his cap tied into 4 players, on a non contending team, then he is going to have to trade someone good to get rid of someone bad. The only thing that matters is whether or not he wants to trim payroll.

 

Not to put you on the spot here but aside from your two examples from the 70's-80's with Kareem/Moses and the poor examples in Baron/Allen, who else is there besides Gasol? In terms of star power, at least. We all know there are smaller examples of said player approaching free agency where Team A cannot afford to keep him so they deal him to Team B who either has cap space or is willing to spend like a drunken sailor. Okay. But where are the examples on THIS level other than Gasol and this hypothetical CP3 stuff?

And again, Gasol was considered overrated at the time. Everybody knew he was good for 20-10 but outside of that he was generally perceived as the typical player putting up monster numbers on a bad team. Who feels that way about CP3? Would would challenge the notion that CP3 is the best PG in basketball? Who would reason that it's smart to trade said player at age 23, no less? Just some of the many reasons I can't take this idea seriously, even when recognizing the slumping economy and incentive necessary for another team to take on one of their bad contracts. They can use West for that purpose, not Paul.

Agreed entirely which is why it wouldn't surprise me at all if West ended up being the sacrificial lamb needed in order to part with one of those horrible contracts. I still think Paul is untouchable, though.

 

Shinn won't trade his meal ticket. Everyone else, including West, is probably fair game.

I wouldn't be surprised if Byron Scott is fired before the draft. That game STUNK of a team that quit on their coach.

Evan

 

I like how people still argue memphis should have still hung on to gasol even though the team was bleeding cash. yes, i'm willing to have this argument again.

 

I gave you a few examples already. You choose to discount them because those situations were not the exact same situation (magnitude or reasoning behind the trade) as the Gasol trade. Neither is the Hornets situation (cheap owner with 75% of the cap tied up in 4 players on a sub-par team in a market he wants to leave, in a bad economy). The examples I provided may not include guys as good as Paul, but they are still situations revolving around owners with assets that they didn't want to pay. This is not a typical thing (need an owner in a bind, with a high paid guy on a subpar team...also the owner has to care more about $$ than winning), but to act like it can't happen or hasn't happened before is not an accurate assessment. The same thing happens when players don't get along with management for certain reasons.

Additionally, I can't think of too many situations involving owners in as bad of a situation as Shinn is in right now. The Hornets were barely selling out even last season. But to answer your question, the Celtics got KG, who is one of the top PF's in basketball...because it didn't make sense to pay him all that $$ on a losing team (that led to a title). I would argue that he is just as important as CP3. Wouldn't you? Is CP3 now better than T-Mac was when we landed him? Granted, he didn't want to be there....but management shipped off arguably the 2nd best wing in basketball for nothing (at that time there were tons of Kobe vs T-Mac comparisons). You think the Gasol trade was a ripoff that changed the balance of the league? Go back and look at how the Pistons (who might have won the title the yr before if Zeke didn't get hurt) landed Mark Aguirre, who was arguably a better player than Gasol was viewed to be at the time Dallas sent him off, and he was only 29. That trade led to 2 straight titles. Was the Gasol trade worse than the Bulls landing Rodman for Will Perdue, which led to 3 titles? Wasn't Rodman one of the games best PF's at the time...even if he couldn't get along with management? Is Paul better than a 26/27 year old Moses Malone, who we traded right after he won the MVP and had carried us to the Finals 2 years prior? That got Philly a title. Or when the Pistons landed R.Wallace (that led to a title)? Or when the Celtics landed Dennis Johnson (led to 2 titles). You can argue that all of these guys were better than Gasol. You can argue that some were better than Paul...and the only clear cut advantage Paul really has is youth.

Last years trade wasn't the first time a top notch player was traded for nothing. It doesn't happen often, but to act like it can't makes no sense. With all that being said, I doubt Paul goes anywhere (I believe my original post said the chance was like 3%), but it's not idiotic to say it can happen.

 

The worst part is this isnt over yet, can Hornets man up at game 5?

 

I understand your argument and you present your points well. What I don't get though, is how you speak as if the Hornets are unhappy with Paul. Where is it written, quoted or suggested that Shinn is either (A) unhappy with Paul, or (B) is unwilling to pay him? With all these situations there's usually fuel leading to the fire somewhere. I fail to see where Paul's situation gains any relevance in this type of discussion other than just pure speculation about the "cheap owner" and merely wishful thinking on part of Rockets fans.

Donald Sterling is notoriously one of the cheapest owners in basketball. Nevermind, the two max contracts, one near max contract and fourth deal at $8M/year. Using this logic described above should I be under the assumption players like Eric Gordon and Al Thornton are all available because he doesn't want to pay them somewhere down the line?

Do I disagree that moves like Aguirre, Rodman, Dennis Johnson and what not helped shift the balance of power in the league? Not at all. The point is in modern times this hasn't been much of an issue. Aside from the early 2000's and what not, where the West was so ridiculously superior to the East, this hasn't really been a problem. With the resurgence of the East over the past few years and the West gaining more depth, the conferences (especially the WC) had seemingly finally evened out a bit. Then the Gasol trade happened that made the Lakers a serious threat again IMMEDIATELY. They should have won the NBA Finals last year based on off talent alone. They're so crazy loaded now that, along with the Cavs, the disparity between the #1 seed in each conference and the #2 seed and so on is as bad as I have ever seen it. The Gasol trade was a huge contributing factor to this "problem".

As for the trade value discussions.....

Was KG just as valuable as Paul in terms of trade value? Not a chance. KG was in his 30's, entered the league at age 18 and will likely (as evidenced by this year's disappointment) continue to break down physically. He's peaked, past his prime and was perfect for Boston's "win now" philosophy. Sure, he was instrumental in the C's championship run last year and is still very good, but in no way is KG on CP3's level in terms of trade value.

T-Mac (at age 24) vs. CP3 (now at age 23) is a much more relevant example. But what I don't understand is even despite the fact that T-Mac forced his way out and Orlando knew they had to deal him, you actually condemned the Magic for accepting nothing (by "nothing": an All-Star PG in his prime, a solid 15-19 PPG near All-Star SG talent, a serviceable 4/5 all the while unloading Juwan Howard's nasty contract) but then you go and seriously suggest that T-Mac's expiring for Paul/West "works"? I mean, c'mon now....

P.S. Attendance figures are somewhat irrelevant in an argument like this. You say they were "barely selling out" last year at 98.7% capacity. That's good enough for top 10 in the league. (Just throwing that out there, I get your point about Shinn and the Hornets being in such a mess, though)

I never said it "can't", I said it would be idiotic. As idiotic as trading your 23-year-old franchise player, top player at his position and meal ticket to your franchise could possibly get. I'm not saying it's IMPOSSIBLE, I just think it would be could be a dangerous message to send to the rest of the NBA. Really, what type of message does it send whenever a team like New Orleans can't "afford" to keep a player like that? It's damaging to everybody, in every sense of the word.

Let's pretend for a moment this happens and Paul gets dealt in a rich-get-richer type scenario. Is that good for the league? Of course not, and that's what concerns me. I don't want to see a team like New Orleans, Toronto or whoever forced to part ways with their franchise player over financial reasons. That's terrible for the team and terrible for the NBA.

 

When did I say the Hornets were unhappy with Paul? I said it's not idiotic to fathom a team getting rid of a great player for financial reasons.

Define modern times? The T-Mac, KG, Gasol and Sheed trades all happened post 2000. The Billups trade went down this summer. None of these players were as young as Paul when traded, with the exception of T-Mac. but you asked for examples and you got them. How often do you expect to see a major player given away anyway? I would say one major trade occurring like every 5 years shows that it's not idiotic to say a major talent can be traded for whatever reason (Malone in the early 80's, DJ in the mid 80's, Aguirre in the late 80's, Drexler in the early 90's, Rodman in the mid 90's, Sheed and T-Mac in the mid 00's, KG and Gasol last year, Billups this year). Again, not all of those players are as young as Paul....but superstar players get shipped off all the time.

I completely disagree. KG landed the Wolves Jefferson (stud big, hard to acquire) and two #1 picks. KG's had heavy trade value before last season.

I don't know too many (even Rockets fans) that don't think Orlando got fleeced in that deal. Additionally, I noted the trades that got you close from a $$ point of view (i.e. under the salary cap). I didn't even mention draft picks in any of those trades, so I don't see why you would conclude that I was suggesting a T-Mac for Paul/West swap would be accepted. Especially when I also noted Paul has like a 3% chance to be shipped off, or that the only way to get rid of their bad contracts (Peja/Chandler) would be to include one of their good ones in a deal (Paul/West).

Yes, it would be idiotic to trade Paul, just like it was idiotic to trade away most of those dudes I mentioned earlier. But that doesn't mean idiotic trades don't happen. My point is you can't say it's idiotic to say a dude, any dude, can be shipped off for whatever reason when we have tons of examples of it occurring, as recently as last season.

Dude, it won't be the first time a player is shipped off because a team didn't want to pay them. The league seemed to be fine with Malone going to Philly to create one of the greatest teams ever. The league is doing great now that LA is on top again. The league came out as big winners when Boston picked up Allen & KG. Terrible for that team and fanbase...maybe....but for the league overall and the team acquiring said player.....not at all. Hell, all of the Laker titles were won with dudes they fleeced from other teams (traded for Wilt & Kareem, signed Shaq once the free agency rules changed, etc).

 

BREAKING: Hornets to Relocate

 

That's basically what you're implying when you endorse something like this. You don't just trade away a player like Paul merely because you don't think the "cheap owner" (which we've already established is an overused/misunderstood term, example: Donald Sterling) can afford to keep him or not. When dealing with a player this good there has to be some type of other pressing issue: locker room, work ethic, clashing with management/coaching, underachieving, etc. Paul is guilty of none of that.

Dude, superstars getting traded rather frequently isn't news to me. And believe it or not, I can understand that each trade does have their cause/effect so pointing out what Sheed, KG, Billups, Ray Allen and what not have all done since getting dealt is irrelevant to our discussion.

This is a Chris Paul conversation. Meaning: the only players that will draw any relevant comparisons in a discussion like is are players that are all of similar age, talent, potential and status as a clear-cut franchise player. That's why the T-Mac example makes sense, for instance. This is the direction I originally intended for our discussion to head in, not what older players with lesser trade value, like those mentioned above, have all done since getting dealt.

At the time, yes. McHale was smart to get as much back for KG as he did. It's precisely why even despite the C's winning a championship last year, I don't think it's possible to argue Minnesota has any regrets. But the point remains that a 23-year-old player that's as great as Paul is NOT the same as a 30-something physically declining star that's been in the league since age 18 in terms of trade value.

In hindsight, sure it looks bad given that all those players we gave up are out of the NBA right now. Does that make it a poor decision at the time? Did they get "nothing", as suggested? No, they made a logical move at the time. And I concluded that you suggested a T-Mac for Paul/West deal because that's precisely what you did. You were suggesting various scenarios that work in terms of matching salary, which anybody with access to RealGM or ESPN Trade Checker can do themselves. So outside of pointing out the obvious, I don't know why you would even mention such a deal unless you were suggesting it in some capacity. But that type of move is ridiculously one-sided and never would happen, so I digress.

Saying there have been "tons of examples" similar to a potential CP3 trade irks me a bit. As we have both pointed out, each case is specific. The only scenario that even comes close to trading away a player like Paul with his age, talent, potential and status as a clear-cut franchise player is T-Mac. And as I have mentioned before, you can argue in hindsight Orlando got fleeced but the fact remains that at the time of the trade they got what was considered fair or equal value in return for T-Mac. This, of course, placing aside the obvious fact that T-Mac forced his way out Orlando thereby killing any leverage the Magic had in trade negotiations. Paul is guilty of none of that which likely takes your 3% figure and cuts that in half.

Hey, at least we can agree that this type of move is very, VERY unlikely. New Orleans can't afford to trade away their meal ticket. Besides, what kind of message does it send to the fans if they trade away a promising younh player like Paul merely for financial reasons? It's a tough argument to make and an even tougher sell to the fan base. Not gonna happen so we're both right, if you want to look at it that way.

P.S. Leaving to watch the game now. I'll check this later tonight. GO ROCKETS!!!

 

Sorry for the late reply to this thread but I wanted to say that I was wrong, DEAD WRONG about this series. I was very skeptical about the Nuggets and their defensive prowess but after that Game 4, I was like wow, did the Hornets just give up or what?? That effort was absolutely pathetic. A3PO definitely knew what he was talking about unlike me.

 

Score predictions for tonights game please?

 

Denver will score more than the Honey Bees.