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Westbrook vs Harden

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by heypartner, Oct 30, 2012.

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  1. t_mac1

    t_mac1 Member

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    You must really don't watch Tony Allen play.
     
  2. qwertzy

    qwertzy Member

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    westbrook is better but with sg situation harden is probably more valuable
     
  3. J.R.

    J.R. Member

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    Maybe the Rockets can trade for Kevin Martin again?

    Oh look, there's Kevin blowing by James!
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    Via BR
     
  4. aelliott

    aelliott Member

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    True, and the Blazer's defense was completely geared to stop Harden. They played Howard 1-on-1 and completely left our PF so that they'd always have two bigs in the paint to stop Harden from getting to the rim.
     
  5. Rocketeer

    Rocketeer Member

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    Why are we down playing Mathews defense, not a juggernaut by any means but he is a very solid defender.
     
  6. J.R.

    J.R. Member

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    Clearly the Clutchfans experts know more. ;)
     
  7. t_mac1

    t_mac1 Member

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    He had a defensive win shares in the regular season of 1.9. That's infinitely worse than James Harden. And just as bad as Liliard. They formed one of the worst defensive backcourts in the NBA. However, Batum is a very good defender, but it was pretty much Matthews when he was on the court.

    The Blazers as a team in the regular season had a defensive rating worse than the league average. That team was an offensive juggernaut, and they win by outscoring you. So there was no reason for Harden to struggle.

    Just b/c Matthews bodied James up doesn't mean that it was good defense. Harden just preferred to chuck up bad shots and looked for refs to bail him out, and didn't want to "create" good shots.

    Harden's distance per shot was 16 feet v. the Blazers (9 of those were 3s PER GAME). That's not good defense; that's lazy offense.

    A guy of Harden's ability doesn't need to jack up 9 3s per game. And Matthews definitely can't do that.

    Harden just sucked period.
     
  8. Rocketeer

    Rocketeer Member

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    Who cares what happened in the regular season. We all thought the Rockets matched up great with Portland and look what happened. The playoffs are a different animal with all strengths and weakness exposed.
     
  9. t_mac1

    t_mac1 Member

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    Agreed.

    James Harden has had poor postseason runs both years as the Rockets #1 guy. That's the primary issue.

    You pay these guys the max for the playoffs. So all we can hope is Harden figures it out this offseason on what he has to do to improve his play in the playoffs.
     
  10. amaru

    amaru Member

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    Give me the guy who hasn't had to have 3 surgeries on the same knee
     
  11. Aleron

    Aleron Member

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    This is San Antonio's defensive strategy vs Westbrook.

    Have a help defender swipe at the ball and provide defense at the rim.

    http://stats.nba.com/cvp.html?GameID=0041300314&GameEventID=79

    This is San Antonio's defensive strategy vs Jackson

    Have a help defender swipe at the ball and provide defense at the rim.

    http://stats.nba.com/cvp.html?GameID=0041300313&GameEventID=145

    This is San Antonio's defensive strategy vs Durant

    Alert Alert Alert, Converge, he must not drive, I repeat he must not drive

    http://stats.nba.com/cvp.html?GameID=0041300314&GameEventID=292

    One of these strategies is not like the others.

    Harden was getting a lot of #3, Aldridge was playing free safety because his man was no threat so driving was always into the land of the giants, multiple giants, and not much of #1, and if you really think any defender is good enough to turn #1 into more pressure than #3, well I've got some bridges to sell you, lots of them, barely used.

    You know who used these same strategies? Memphis.
     
  12. t_mac1

    t_mac1 Member

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    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/TT6OxS_7VzI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    That's pretty basic defense to me. Whoever guarded Harden was pretty much on an island.

    And let's not get into his ghost defense.

    Harden just sucked. It was pretty simple.
     
  13. aelliott

    aelliott Member

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    Even in that clip it's easy to see that Portland was packing the paint to keep Harden from being able to drive. If the defender was on an island then their teammates don't leave their man and hang near the paint.

    0:12 - Double team off of the P&R (Lopez, Matthews).

    0:19 - How many defenders in the paint?

    0:29 - How may defenders in the paint?

    0:57 - Notice Aldridge ignoring Asik and playing centerfield at the FT line?

    1:09 - How many defenders in the paint? Anyone playing Beverley or Parsons?

    2:49 - Harden comes off pick, Aldridge playing centerfield in the paint.

    2:51 - double team

    2:56 - How many defenders in the paint?

    3:01 - How many defenders in the paint?

    BTW Who was scoring on Harden's "ghost defense"?
     
  14. t_mac1

    t_mac1 Member

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    If you're complaining about that type of defense. I don't know what to say. that's basic defense vs any top player in this league.

    Matthews averaged 15 points in that series. They ran post plays for Matthews numerous times just to attack Harden. And he's their freaking 4th option.

    Did you not watch the series?

    PS - Harden was bad last year too in the playoffs v. OKC. 39% shooting. Took 7 3s.

    Let's not blame the opponents. This is something Harden has to learn. In the playoffs, things get tighter. Possessions get more critical. Effort plays are more abundant. Defense should always be maxed out.

    He's the main player on a team now. He most likely will learn. But Houston is looking to go deep this year. So time is running out for him to under-perform. He has the talent around him. Best center. A rising SF/3rd option. Great defender in Beverly. Some young pieces. And management who's always looking to improve the roster.

    Harden just has to work hard this offseason and improve his game. It's that simple.
     
    #674 t_mac1, May 28, 2014
    Last edited: May 28, 2014
  15. roksoer

    roksoer Member

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    That's the thing, Harden couldn't even get by Matthews from the perimeter, yet that was our go to play besides dumping it to Dwight.

    However, Matthews is a Harden stopper, he might not be a good defender in general, but he steps up when he plays Harden, seriously. Have a look at any Portland vs Houston game since we've had Harden, Matthews is always extremely focused, which isn't the case when he's playing other guys. Harden did have some good games against him but it was always against very tough defense. So I'm blaming the playoffs collapse on the coaching that decided that Harden needs to go 1 on 1 on Matthews who has his number.

    A bigger issue I have with Harden is on the defensive side. The way he guards his man is just not good defense, Portland kept going at him, whoever Harden was on would just shoot basically a practice jumper over him with extra confidence, knowing Harden will not contest well enough to actually change the shot.

    I'm not hating on Harden, I'm just pointing out the things that need improvement.
     
  16. t_mac1

    t_mac1 Member

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    Wrong.

    Regular season v. Portland: 30 points, 7 boards, 5 dimes, 48% fg

    2013 regular v Portland: 30 points, 7 boards, 7 dimes ,50% fg

    But again, playoffs are a different beast. Harden's production has tailed off in both playoff series in the first round.

    It's something Harden has to resolve himself.
     
  17. CertifiedTroll

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    We can trade Harden for Love, and move Love to SG.
    Starting line up
    Pg: Lin
    SG:Love
    SF: Parsen
    PF: Lin
    Center:Asik
     
  18. larsv8

    larsv8 Member

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    Harden 10 times out of 10 over Westbrook.

    Russ is just one of the dumbest players I have ever seen.
     
  19. chandlerbang21

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    westbrook has advantages over harden that make him the better player. Cant deny that. harden has to add more to his game and used some athletic ability
     
  20. slestack11

    slestack11 Member

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    Harden's opponent PER is 13.9 because he tends to defend the lesser players on the other team. Westbrook is used as a stopper on defense so he guards the elite players on the opponent's team. Again, efficiency stats are so deceiving. The way I see it, the best players should increase their level of difficulty by taking tougher shots and defending better players.
     

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