Westbrook: "I don't give a f*** about (my stat) line."

anyone who thinks a pro athelete can play passively and then turn it on agressively when someone is subbed in or out is full of ****. you can't turn it on and off like that which is why statbrooks teammates are ass playing with him and all stars without him.

 

We should compare performance of his teammates when on his team versus when not on his team over the last 3 years. I think you have a few notable examples in your mind that makes you say he makes people around him worse. I wonder if that’s really true, and to what degree, if you really check the numbers for all his teammates that switched teams.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th...2/victor-oladipo-russell-westbrook-okc-effect

 

That goes without saying. It's for both sides. It should show one way or the other, or inconclusive.

 

brainfart. you're right.. so question is what's def rating when WB is on court

 

Westbrook is a bish

 

This article (linked to previously in thread) discusses it:

https://fansided.com/2015/09/09/rebounding-positionality-and-transition-play/

Source: https://www.pbpstats.com/possession-finder

Instructions:
1. Select OKC as team
2. Select Offense for Off/Def
3. Select Off Any Missed FG for Possessions Start Type
4. Select player (or blank, for any player) for Rebounder
5. Add Westbrook for On Floor Filter

Here is the answer to your question for when Westbrook is on the court:

Code:

Rebounder (missed FG)   Poss    Pts      ORTG
Any player              1821    2045     112.3
Westbrook                556     676     121.6
Not Westbrook           1265    1369     108.2

Pretty striking difference.

For comparison, here is the same thing for LeBron James (similar impact):

Code:

Rebounder (missed FG)   Poss    Pts      ORTG
Any player              1919    2170     113.1
LeBron                   550     663     120.5
Not LeBron              1369    1507     110.1

And for Giannis (doesn't help as much when he's the rebounder; must excel more as an outlet target):

Code:

Rebounder (missed FG)   Poss    Pts      ORTG
Any player              1662    1919     115.5
Giannis                  515     576     111.8
Not Giannis             1147    1343     117.1

I suspected Draymond would be really good at this, and he is:

Code:

Rebounder (missed FG)   Poss    Pts      ORTG
Any player              1528    1768     115.7
Draymond                 408     515     126.2
Not Draymond            1120    1253     111.9

And here it is for James Harden (not much impact when he's the rebounder, but the Rockets offense is awesome either way off live rebounds because of their blistering transition 3-point attack):

Code:

Rebounder (missed FG)   Poss    Pts      ORTG
Any player              1652    1991     120.5
Harden                  301      356     118.3
Not Harden              1351    1635     121.0

Here's another breakdown that's interesting for OKC. Both Adams and Westbrook on the floor -- what's the difference when Adams gets the defensive rebound versus Westbrook:

Code:

Rebounder (missed FG)   Poss    Pts      ORTG
Westbrook               440     539      122.5
Adams                   257     298      115.9

People have argued that Adams should be the rebounder and Westbrook should be running out for the outlet pass rather than pursuing the rebound himself. The problem with relying on that only is a solid outlet pass to Westbrook in stride is not always available for a variety of reasons. The most fool-proof way of ensuring Westbrook gets the ball quickly and is able to jump-start their fastbreak is for him to get the rebound himself.

 

I just don't agree with the premise that bigs intentionally not rebounding helps transition in any way. The data just seems like noise, specifically when it is not consistent among all players. It provides no advantage to the guard, as the big can just quickly snatch it and throw a quick pass to the guard who can, in turn, be closer to the half court line.

 

The data is pretty solid that guards getting the rebound will lead to better transition opportunities than bigs. Not sure how you can read the article I just linked to and call that noise? For every shot zone the PG getting the rebound led to higher transition frequency than wings or bigs.

It won't be perfectly consistent, because Russell Westbrook with a full court in front of him is way different than your average guard. Your point about the big just snatching it and throwing a quick pass to the guard ignores the difficulties and complexities in cleanly securing the rebound and then immediately completing outlet passes to a guard in stride. It's not that simple, and bigs who are actually good/prolific at it are relatively rare.

 

The data doesn't show that at all.

You just showed Draymond and Harden as clearly the opposite???

The complexities are not there when its uncontested.

 

Draymond Green plays point for the Warriors on offense when he gets the rebound. I assume you know this.

And that there is in-group variation among individual players does not mean the high-level positional trends isn’t clear and well established, statistically. Guards tend to shoot FTs better than bigs. That fact doesn’t become “noise” just because you can find counter-examples to that trend.

As for uncontested rebounding making it easier to throw outlets, yes of course. The problem is the frequency of uncontested rebounds will go down significantly if you’re leaving your bigs to wrestle for rebounds against their counterparts while your best rebounding guard is leaking out the opposite direction on every miss.

 

I think the point is that Westbrook has a lot of uncontested rebounds. And it is exactly those rebounds that do not need him to get because an easy outlet pass would have been as effective, if not more effective.

Without looking at stats, it sounds logical. I have these two images in my mind. First, most of the opposing players have already retreated in transition defense. Leaving a wide open defensive rebound for Westbrook to grab while the bigs stand there watching. Second, Westbrook grab the rebound in traffic with several opposing players trying to get the offensive board. He then streak up court before the opposing team has time to set the defense.

The first scenario is what his detractor is countering the apologists' argument. The second scenario is what the apologists are pointing to. This trigger me to ask another statistical request. It would be good to see the split offensive efficiency between contested and uncontested defensive rebounds.

Also, back to my earlier question of why not more teams are doing the same. You actually posted a few players such as LeBron and Draymond who are good rebounders as well as good handlers. They have the same advantage of Westbrook in starting the offense from taking defensive rebound. Their numbers seem to show the same pattern. Also, the stats you showed do not account for the number of ball handlers on the same team. Harden's defensive rebounding does not generate particular advantage. You believe that our offense is already great. But could it be even greater? Could it be because we have another great ball handler in Chris Paul. An outlet pass to more than one fast breaking guards could theoretically be easier than when you have to target your pass to only one player.

These questions interest me beyond the Westbrook debate. It touches on the whole team strategy of generating fast break. I still believe that no other team has consciously used this strategy to help those players get the defensive rebounds, and I wonder why.

 

I would guess that Westbrook is just faster and better on the break than those other players, except for LeBron. Draymond really isn't gonna go coast to coast like that.

 

What I have in mind is a third scenario: Westbrook gets an uncontested rebound, but the reason its uncontested is because his teammates are being diligent in boxing out the other team's offensive rebounders. In that scenario, what turned out to be an uncontested rebound likely would not have been if Westbrook wasn't going after it.

I'm not sure what you are suggesting. When Harden and Paul share the floor, either Harden or Paul getting the rebound results in a better offensive possession than when neither gets it.

Both Harden and Paul on the floor

Code:

Rebounder (missed FG)   Poss    Pts      ORTG
Any Player              596     767      128.7
Harden                  93      121      130.1
Paul                    114     157      137.7
Not Harden or Paul      389     489      125.7

When Harden is on the floor and Paul is not on the floor, there is no clear advantage in Harden getting the rebound:

Code:

Rebounder (missed FG)   Poss    Pts      ORTG
Any Player              1056    1224     115.9    
Harden                  208      235     113.0
Not Harden              848      989     116.6

WIth Paul on the floor and Harden off the floor

Code:

Rebounder (missed FG)   Poss    Pts      ORTG
Any Player              578      740     128.0    
Paul                    147      202     137.4
Not Harden or Paul      431      538     124.8

And, in general, with Harden on the floor, there's this:

Code:

Rebounder (missed FG)   Poss    Pts      ORTG
Any Player              1652    1991     120.5    
Harden                  301      356     118.3
Paul                    115      160     139.1
Not Harden or Paul      1236    1475     119.3

So what sticks out to me is that Chris Paul getting the rebound and starting the possession offers a better advantage than Harden. Better PG instincts? I don't have a great explanation for that.

As I said earlier, I don't think this is necessarily a case where OKC coaches are directing the players to play this way specifically for this reason. It's more like they accept Westbrook playing in this way because that's the way he likes to play (go get the ball himself), his teammates are cool with it, and the tradeoffs (when taking everything into account) don't clearly point to it being a losing strategy.

 

no way anyone would believe that he doesn't care about his stat line...when was the last time Westbrook played 35+ minutes and only had 9 field goal attempts?

 

Are fanboys still gonna say he had no help last year now that Oladipo is about to make an All NBA team, an All D team and led his team to just as many wins as OKC?

 

I took a look at his game logs this year and tried to see if there is any relationship between the frequency of his defensive rebounding (on a per possession basis) and his team's point differential while he's on the floor. For the point differential, I added an adjustment based on Opponent SRS and whether the game was at home or on the road. Here's what the plot ended up looking like:



I don't want to overstate the significance of this given all the confounding variables. But, it appears that there may be benefit to his defensive board work up to between 10-12 defensive boards per 100 possessions (which corresponds roughly to around 8 defensive boards per 36 minutes), and then the benefit flat-lines.

The splits when facing "good" opponents vs "bad" opponents may also be of interest. I classify opponent as "good" or "bad" based on SRS, against adjusted depending on if they're at home or on the road (positive rating is "good").

 

I was trying to think why Harden's defensive rebounding does not generate better team offense than when other players get the rebounds. My suggestion was that perhaps we have another great ball handler on the floor and it would be easier for the bigs to make outlet passes, not needing Harden to start fast break by grabbing the defensive rebounds.

Now you posted Paul'a numbers which clearly show a big difference. I guess it just shows that Harden does not have the fast attacking instinct as CP3 does so him getting defensive rebound does not help offensive efficiency.

What I am saying is, the numbers seem to show that it does give the offense a clear advantage. It should have been a strategy of choice, not just by default of the player's style.

It's like 3pt shooting. The math is clear that open 3pt shots are more efficient than any other shot except layup and dunk. So the offensive strategy of choice is to create open 3pt shots as much as possible. I am pretty sure Morey has the knowledge somewhere about the correlation between CP3's defensive rebounding and the heightened offensive efficiency. Shouldn't it be put into consideration in our coaching approach?

Another thing I noticed. Harden's defensive rebounding was abnormally high lasts season. This season, it has dropped back down to his career average. Coincidentally, Harden's defense seems to have improved this season. Also, could it be that last season Harden was semi conscious in chasing Westbrook's stats? (getting ready for flaming by Harden fans... )

 

https://www.foxsports.com/watch/the-herd-with-colin-cowherd/video/1209278019945

 

ifruss doesnt care about his statline, then i dont care about my double bacon cheeseburgers

they'll just say he developed a lot in the offseason