First tell me, who is “they” that I asked earlier. Doesn’t surprise me you think so. As I’ve repeatedly said, these things poll well in the abstract. Don’t need polling to see that Americans want a better healthcare system. Already threads regarding M4A and how Bernie still hasn’t explained to pay for half. Not to mention, all the details regarding what it means for pensioners, unions, etc. I don’t disagree but you still need something or message to get more people onboard than those who benefit directly. The “system is rigged” doesn’t have the effect you think it does. It shouldn’t take “this and that” to get the youth to vote.... but since the powers that be know the youth historically are not reliable voters... it becomes a chicken vs the egg. What are the reasons are given that gets the middle aged and seniors to vote?
So you think Free college happens around the world? Do you realize how restrictive free secondary education is around the world?
People in the thread that say it can't be done. Expecting that explanation to come from here is a bit much though. It's not like we have world class economists posting on these forums that I know about. But we do have economists and thinktanks that do think it is possible in this country. I think it's more fair to refer to them than expect it out of anyone here. I never said that message works ever. But anti-elite messaging DOES work, it's worked all over the world, and Trump just proved it works and now has a fervent base because they think he's draining the swamp and going against elites. Of course he's not actually doing anything of the sort, but that message does work. The reasons are healthcare and better wages...also, Millenials will be middle aged and entering that territory and Gen x are middle aged now and are much more progressive than previous generations. I think it's time to listen to what they want, the GOP has the old age on lockdown, I don't see the point in competing in that space against them.
Where are you getting this from? I and my friends are Gen xers and I don't see that. Can you provide a link?
It is a good point though because at the time free education for all didn't exist, public schools didn't exist, and the country as a whole was dumber because of it. Educating your civilians is a benefit to a country, there shouldn't be hurdles that only those with money can leap to get educated. If you ask people now "Should K-12 be free?" most people think of course, it's not even a doubt that it should be. Not all around the world, but developed countries certainly make free or affordable education a point of emphasis. Sure https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/201...llennials-on-key-social-and-political-issues/ There are also polls on specific issues where you find these same numbers. The following generations are just more progressive and liberal. https://www.victimsofcommunism.org/2019-annual-poll The thing is...younger generations think capitalism has been taken too far and they see that in everything they do, especially as they see the planet they are going to inherit burn because of unfiltered greed.
That’s very vague... are doing that progressive thing where you assume because others don’t feel as strongly as you on an issue that you assume they are completely against it? I would love if a dem candidate talked about bringing back after school programs. I would love an ambitious teacher pay proposal. I would love an ambitious proposal to add 2 years of community college/trade school. The details matter tremendously. Trump tied it to nationalism and anti immigration. Bernie has got “the system is rigged” but what else? I don’t disagree but you will lose the messaging battle.
Good luck cutting military budget in this country or getting a tax increase. Even then both of those wouldn't be enough to pay for Bernie's initiatives.
@jiggyfly Yes, Gen X is more liberal than the previous generations, the ones after Gen X are more liberal than them. As for free education, yes countries do have it? Norway, Denmark, France, Germany... Also, I'm arguing for free OR affordable college, but we can start at free and bargain down. Should it be completely free, I don't know, but it should certainly be affordable and should not people into massive debt just as they are starting their lives. I know that much. I think people are tired of hearing what we can't do, if we can't do this or that, then it's time to start saying what CAN be done to fix this issue...or else more people are going to turn to socialist policies. I don't think it is a coincidence that every generation keeps going more and more left.
It's not vague, it's in this thread right here. Just look at who I'm replying to they are saying it can't be done. There were no alternatives offered. Your other plans are the first time someone in this thread said something else. Of course they do, but I really don't expect great debate here on the details. Not that I'm insulting the userbase here but there are levels to this, there's clearly thinktanks that think it can't be done and ones that think it can be done. Thats where the details will be argued. Come on, Bernie is much more than that. It's not even him that says that but his supporters, Bernie campaigned harder for Clinton than she ever would have for him. Doesn't sound like someone that thinks the system is rigged. Bernie's thing is what the world is going through right now, people are tired of what they see as a growing oligarchy that is ruling the world. I think this is a simple message. I think messaging is tied to charisma and likeability...I don't think Klobuchar has the former and I don't think Pete has the latter. Bernie has a movement behind him and I think to ignore that or just think it's going to vote blue is dangerous. We can't attack progressives as if they are the enemy, they want to be part of the party but that means giving them something too.
Sounds exactly like how I was feeling when Trump was the nomination. I abstained from voting that year. I was shocked that he won and then rationalized it by saying that's what we as a country get. I would say this: If Bloomberg is the Dem. nominee, you might as well support him because you'll be supporting pushing the policies that you believe in as a party/progressive. Or better yet, ask yourself, Trump or Dem. President? Should be a no brainier even if you feel the urge to protest the oligarchy. Don't get me wrong, we on the other side would love for you to throw your vote.
Sweet Lou gave you one.... I stand by my statement, seems like there's a lot of "not far enough". I mean there was a serious thread about it.... Just about anything can be done with enough money. Maybe. But too many of his supporters don't feel that way. Trump already did that but turned into 1930 style nationalism..... "System is unfair" isn't enough and certainly doesn't appeal to moderates as much. Almost feel like I'm being punished for having some moderate success in my life by progressives with the extreme rhetoric. Very much a "with us or against us" mentality. But how really big is this movement..... 2018 was more about moderates winning seats than AOC or whoever winning a progressive district. Progressives can't attack moderate Dems as if they're the enemy either.... however it seems progressives are far less compromising. As you said.... we need to promise "ponies" to get the youth motivated to come out..... From my perspective, Trump should be motivation enough, but progressives (helped by conservatives) are making this about more than just winning 2020. Do you progressives understand Trump is putting forth judges that will block your agenda?
Ehh... to be fair internet woke culture hasn’t been as bad the past 6 to 12 months. I think it’s come back to reality a little bit. I think Obama hit the nail on the head a few months ago. Maher used to host a show called Politically Incorrect. He got fired for saying stupid crap, and argued for himself although he apologized for using the N word in a joking manner. The guys entire career is about fighting political correctness and having a stream of consciousness opinion. Its refreshing sometimes. Sometimes offensive. Mostly meh funny. But I don’t know what he’s talking about with “The Democrats” and woke culture and 2020. Bernie is the front runner at the moment and you can say what you want about him, but internet woke SJW isn’t that. The guy repeats the same 5 sentences like a broken record. Call me when Bernie or Biden pick Rose McGowan for VP. If this diatribe is related to what Carville was ranting about though with simplifying what you’re selling the American voters than yes I agree with that. Warren is probably the worst at flooding too many policy proposals that most people don’t care about. Bernie and Biden are both pretty simple so I don’t think the Carville rant really will apply in the end. The candidate who wins will be smart enough to have decent messaging. If it can break through the Trump noise though is another question.
Just because you say it does not mean its true and even so being more liberal does not mean you believe in Bernie. The countries that have free college are very restrictive to the people that go to university, its a testing system not anybody can get in to college. Going more and more left does not mean you believe in free college and M4A.
We have had great debates on the merits of M4A and free college, and it was shown that the people for Bernie did not have a great idea of how other countries actually run healthcare or their education system.
All I've seen is "Can't do it." no alternatives. His last post is "Good luck doing that," maybe I skipped over the post where an alternative was offered. Fair enough. It's not his fault if they don't listen to him when it comes to supporting other candidates. He tried. It's not like he just sat at home and hurled insults at Clinton...which she's currently doing to him. He actually got out and campaigned for her. What more is he supposed to do? Trump didn't even try to appeal to moderates and won the election. He promised some silly huge beautiful concrete wall, promised jobs, and promised everything would be great once he was elected. I don't know why you feel that way but clearly people on the other side feel the same way. Nah, I disagree. I don't think it is as simple as that. There were progressive gains and more of these people are in politics than in 2016. The tea party didn't transform the party through one election either. We don't know how big it is, but we know Bernie does do well with independents and young voters, better than any other nominee, that shouldn't just be ignored. There is a reason he does well and it would be smart to not just ignore it and toss away. I think conservatives have done a pretty good job at dividing the party. People really believe Bernie and Warren and others are radical socialists that want to bring Stalinism to the USA. We had Chirs Mathews crying about how Bernie is going to assassinate him or something. I don't think Trump is motivation enough either and it is wrong to scold people because they do not vote. I don't think "Trump bad" works and we should not count on that to be enough. Also, couldn't I flip that? You tell me that moderates won't vote for Bernie, couldn't I say that do you moderates understand that Trump is putting forth judges that will block your agenda? This works both ways doesn't it? I think Bernie appeals more to moderates and heartland USA than people realize and I think the primaries are going to show that.
The polls show what I say is true about generations. You can deny that but I'd ask if you'd have any contradicting information. Also, Bernie does extremely well with young voters. Of course there's always exceptions, but generally, these two things are true. Also, no one said anything about restrictions, just the price of education period. It's not like American colleges are less restrictive. Either you test well and get a scholarship or you don't and will be dealing with massive debt. It's not like the upside to this is that anyone can get into college, you still have to test well here or pay a lot of money to get in. Also, those things poll well even among conservatives... Well I don't know, just because people here couldn't figure it out doesn't mean it can't be figured out. I feel like you have something against Bernie supporters.
What about being more liberal means you want free tuition and M4A? I don't doubt young people are more liberal but that does not mean they all flock to Bernie. It's very funny that you ask me for corroborating information when you claimed that Gen xers where more liberal and you never backed that claim up, that was my initial question and you posted articles about something else. Yeah its pretty obvious you don't know how higher education works in those countries, we have much greater access to university in the U.S. I don't have issues with Bernie supporters , I have issues with Bernie Bros attacking other candidates and then because somebody does not agree with Bernie we must be out of touch or don't know whats really going on. I don't like being told that I am wrong to think compromise is not a dirty word. That whole Pete smear campaign was ugly.
