Look at the team stats <a HREF="http://www.nba.com/rockets/stats/">here</a>. Compare Mark Jackson to Steve in the amount of minutes played, assists per minute and assist to turnover ratio. M Jackson isn't the player that he was 5 years ago, yet his PG numbers look much better than Steve's PG numbers. Steve played with Cato, Yao, Cat, Mo last year, yet Mark is able to get them the ball when & where they need it while Steve seems to have no idea except to lob it high for a Cato dunk. Take out the lobs to Cato and his assist number would be even worse. As far as running a system that M Jackson had seen before and Steve hasn't.............it is just fundamental basketball. If Steve was a student of the game and paying attention, he would have figured out when & how Yao would have his defender pinned. Complaints about Steve not being able to run a fastbreak effectively were already in the air before JVG came to Houston.
Doc asked about talent... I'd like to add that talent is what you are born with. Skill is what you develop. Talent: -Steve is a great jumper. -Steve has great endurance -Steve has an above average what I like to call size/strength/quickness ratio. -Steve has great balance Talent is not limited to physical attributes. There is such as a thing called mental talent. I like to lump vision, instinct, and decision making in this area. If we're honest I'm sure we've seen Steve display vision(home run passes) and instinct (for steals & rebounds), although I may add he doesn't do these things enough to call them a strength. Skill: Steve is a very skilled dribbler. His over-confidence in it is his downfall. I have no doubt Steve is capable of protecting the ball from a defender but we know...there are forced and unforced mistakes in this area. Fundamental basketball (which I won't define) is also something learned by watching and doing and is fueled by a willingness to learn. It can also be force-fed to you by a highschool/college coach. And for my quirky comment...and I don't mean this as a put down...If basketball is judged like figure skating, Steve would do well. Steve is a great basketball dancer/stylist. Anyway great thread!
Well as an outside observer I will say this: Be careful what you ask for... IMO JVG overblown influence will lead to the Rockets moving Francis and you won't get value for him...count on it. Hell, I will give you J Will, Stro, and Battier for him and your pick right now and know for a fact that we stole him from you. I like how people here pine for Kirk Hinrich like he has done something in Chicago that suggests he can lead a team to victories. I sure wish we weren't in the same division and had an actual chance to get Stevie Franchise...back.
Agree. In addition, when Dampier got his 4th foul and went to bench, JVG should have got Yao back sooner and let the team try to get Dampier his 5th foul before too late in the game. With 5 fouls, Dampier's effectiveness in defending Yao would be taken away.
That trade looks pretty good to me. Won't get value? Those are 3 pretty darn good players, and at positions of need. I don't see why you think so highly of Francis. A team like the grizzlies that has so much talent would be hindered by a scoring PG. Thankfully for you, Jerry West knows a bit more about basketball.
dude, i see that you're a big SF fan, judging from the several posts by you about how Memphis is going to get SF back who was "stolen" by the Rox. You're willing to give up JWill, Battier, and Wright for him. hmm, that's an interesting proposal. and makes some sense to the Rox too: JWill actually can dish and protect the ball, although he doesn't play much defense either. the other two are great hussle guys and solid team players. together these 3 are worth 28.7 pts, 12.9 boards, 9.2 assists and only 3.8 turnovers. THere you get your PG, PF and a decent backup SF. Only if there were that "second star" in those 3...too bad, otherwise it might be the perfect offer for SF. but still, i can't help but wonder how highly West the Sage thinks of SF. A sure way to test might be to ask for Gasole + JWill. Just our of curiosity MemphisX: If you are not a SF fan in disguise of a Memphis fan and truly mean what you say, you should be applauding and praying that the turmoil around the Rox boils over and send SF to your lap, instead of coming all the way here to warn the great tragedy of the Rox's facing to let SF such a great talent go. After all they "stole" him from you, they f***in stole THE PRECIOUS from you poor smegal!! LMAO i just can't help it dude! from now on you are the official Memphis Smegal! welcome on board, Smegal! and from now on we all should call he-who-can't-be-named THE PRECIOUS! peace y'all.
Wow. murzin sounds like a crazy person. I hope I never meet him in a dark alley. Memphis X: set it up. I'll take it. There's not a lot of air between SF and J-Will already. Add in those two good role players and you've got a deal.
I think when people say Francis is "talented" they are saying he is "athletic" which he is. But being athletic isn't enough! I mean he hustles. He works hard to get rebounds because of the hustle. But some of the simpler things like dribbling, leading a fast break, passing, set shots, he just can't do. What else is annoying is that while he IS athletic you would think he would be able to drive to the basket and make shots. But this season he has beed dreadful at it. Instead of going to the basket to make a shot (like Mobley) Francis goes to the basket LOOKING FOR CONTACT, he contorts his body waiting for it, it sometimes comes and sometimes doesnt and thus because he contorts his body waiting for the contact his shot just doesnt fall. And the Refs this season are NOT bailing Francis out for his out of control drives. This is costly. If Francis cant hit the outside shot AND cant drive, what good is he? I like Francis, I wish it would have worked but it isn't. Tt is time to move on. Steve Francis for Ray Allen.
SF needs to rebound (in past years more so than this year) because the Rox low post players s*ck at rebounding. Like it or not, SF is rebounding to make the team better. Unfortunately, it is hard to run the fast break when you outlet to yourself. I am not really SF biggest fan. He has holes in his game (like running the fast break). But he still is one of the two best players on the team. Is SF worth the max? No, but he is worth close to it. I think we would all agree that SF has struggled this year with the offense JVG has installed. So far, I am not JVG biggest fan. He has got the team playing better D, but their offense at times stinks. Part of the problem may be he is building an offense around Yoa who is only playing 2/3 of the game. And I don't think that JVG has exploited Yoa's skills to the max. Yoa is one of the best passing man of his size ever, but you would hardly know it. Also trading SF may not fix JVG's at times stink-o offense. Both JVG and the team need work.
I don't see how we can trade SF for a better PG no matter who it is. I'm not sure what GM would do that. What I do see is that we trade SF for a very nice PF. Then trade Cato and/or Mo and ? for a good PG. It's what the Rockets need.
Face it, Steve is hurting our team. There are 33 games so far that Steve has had 4 turnovers or more. Of those 33 games, One-third(21 games) of them he has committed 5-7 turnovers. The good thing is that in the other 33 games this year he has turned the ball over less than 4 times. What good is a point guard if he averages 19 points a game and gives the opponent 10-12 points every other game on 4-7 turnovers? We need somebody that can make fewer dumb mistakes. Steve's games of over 4 turnovers so far this season: Games Date TO 1 Mar 19 7 2 Mar 15 5 3 Mar 9 4 4 Mar 7 5 5 Mar 5 5 6 Mar 3 4 7 Feb 27 4 8 Feb 21 4 9 Feb 17 4 11 Feb 9 4 12 Feb 6 5 13 Jan 31 4 13 Jan 28 4 14 Jan 23 5 15 Jan 17 6 16 Jan 14 7 17 Jan 13 7 18 Jan 11 6 19 Jan 5 7 20 Dec 31 5 21 Dec 29 5 22 Dec 23 5 23 Dec 20 6 24 Dec 11 5 25 Dec 9 4 26 Dec 5 4 27 Nov 26 8 28 Nov 24 6 29 Nov 17 6 30 Nov 4 5 31 Nov 3 4 32 Nov 1 6 33 Oct 30 4
Damn! I can't believe that you were able to use a "Shawshank Redemption" reference in this thread! Good job! Oh and Mango is exactly right about people complaining about Francis not being able to run a fast break before Van Gundy got here - heypartner was the most notable person who talked about and talked about, several times in fact.
Steve is averaging fewer turnovers(3.67) under JVG's system than the previous 2 seasons(3.69 and 3.88). He has been throwing the ball away 4-7 times a game before JVG even got to Houston.
All the points you raise are very good but I believe that folks here are missing the point about Francis. It's true that he's not a PG nor is he really a SG. If one looks closely at his game, one comes to the conclusion that he's really an undersized SF. He has the game of a SF and the temperament of a SF but he doesn't have the size nor the ability to move without the ball like a SF and that's the one thing that will doom him and the Rockets during their brief appearance in the playoffs - he'll be a square peg trying to fit into a round hole at PG.
I'm not going to bash SF fans, but I do believe this team can be better through simple subtraction. SF has the ball in his hands and he keeps it too damned much. He cant't handle the ball nearly as well as every point guard must. What's really embarassing (I haven't seen this mentioned in this thread) is that this amazing athlete can't run a fast break. If we were average in that department we're a 50+ wins team. Steve's stats do lie. There's no one I've seen in this thread that needs a pg101 refresher and I know on the whole dumping him is not optimal for this franchise. But I'm seeing bizarre denial from people I respect, so I'll stop here. Except for the guy that said Yao has zero personality. Man, Yao's funnier than Barkley only smarter. To quote Dime Smack "this dude's like popcorn, we can't get enough". Is your idea of personality AI? Pathetic.
Welcome back Doc. It may even be too late to get equal value back but just like we cut our loses with EG, we have to move SF even if we may not get back what some would think is equal value. There is no question PG is the #1 priority this off season. SF's fate is sealed. Why? Because he was given a final opportunity to show and he has failed miserably and it could get worse before the season ends.
Let's take another quote from that article: "...the man is absolutely unguardable. He’s one of a handful of players in the league who does things on the basketball court you can’t even imagine doing. I remember seeing a video of Francis playing in a summer pro league where he had his man guarding him out at the three-point line, threw the ball off the poor guy’s forehead, caught it and then drove baseline for a sick reverse lay-up." Great Matt Stroup, care to give us your option of Francis in regards to the NBA game because those playground tricks won't work for him on the NBA level. Francis is VERY guardable. Front him, trap him and get him just a little bit flustered and you'll have him in your back pocket, making stupid jump passes, taking wildly acrobatic prayer shots and turning the ball over. Guys like him are a dime a dozen on the playground. They all play fancy, exciting games, but do they know what it takes to win? At this point it's not clear if Francis knows. The only difference is he's just a little more skilled(when focused) than most of them and has landed a high paying job in the NBA. I like exciting basketball as much as the next guy and Francis is one of the more exciting guys in the league, but his excitement is what is controlling him. You want to set Steve Francis free? I say Steve needs to set himself free.....free from the playground style of hoops that is holding him back.
I've been a big Steve fan like a lot of folks, even the supposed Steve hater's. Unfortunately, like many have pointed out here, Steve's game, as good as it may be, just does not fit here. It's not like he isn't trying, it's apparent he is giving it his all. He does not lack for heart and desire. However, he's like the kid who studies and studies and studies but still can only make a C+. It's not from lack of effort. He's just an A+ plus athlete with a C+ basketball mind. Sadly, I believe it is just beyond his mental and physical capability to "fit" in the JVG scheme. At this point, as much as I hate to admit it, I think it would be doing both Steve and the Rockets a favor to find a better match for each. On an unrelated note, welcome back Doc. Are we welcoming you back to a Rocket capacity that has not existed for a while? Are we just welcoming you back to the board, or both? Can you elaborate?
