WTF?!!! Are you related to Brick Saddleman? I have read a lot of ugly, negative things written about Jason Williams, but you have made this an uneasy Sunday morning. I think you need to change your handle, now. How about: "XMemphis?" University (Knight Shift) Blue
Let us keep our pick (or replace it with say Nachbar), and you might have a deal. I think Francis' play in the playoffs will be a very big determinant in us keeping him or moving him...of course, if we were to miss the playoffs, all bets are off.
from Summer Song Giver: SSG, I missed this before I posted. Look no ones happy about this as in whoopee, and I don't think Doc or anyone faults Steve for this unhappy turn of events. We all desperately wanted it to work out. But support your man. I'll look anyone square in the eye and tell you Dream was the most skilled center before or since and that's certainly controversial. Doesn't matter, to me it's fact. I'm really proud of the tone in this thread. I don't see any crowing or "I was right" glee. And this topic has been a flashpoint for years. We're all Rockets fans and we'll get through this
It comes down to this; A) Will we receive equal talent return in a trade of Steve Francis? Very unlikely. For me, as for many, this itself was an endpoint in the argument for trading him. However, at this point, many are now of the conclusion that even a lesser return, if it fits better, will be of greater benefit to the team's progress. I am sadly of this opinion. That said, it is a concession. Because even if we get an talent back which better fits the system we are on a unpward climb to a championship; With talent polarizing the way it is these days you'll need at least 2 serious stars to contend, and we probably aren't there yet. If we get lesser return for Steve, it might indeed propoel us a little further in the short term, but might well signal a lowering of the ceiling long term, unless we make a move for something like Hinrich and a top pick; take a gamble on a higher return. If we make a lateral or downward move, as is most likely, we will definitely need to somehow add another star, and the avenues open for that happening are few.
from MacBeth: MacBeth I understand the melancholy, and even MemphisX in his own clunky way is describing the churning of our stomachs. But I disagree about the "two star" doctrine. I look at Memphis and the way they play and I drool. Stars? Well... I'm not really high on any of them, but damn you plunk Yao at center on that team and I say they win the title. They're still the most dangerous team out there anyway. I know CD's not Jerry West, but no one else is. We've been unlucky, but this organization identifies talent and we do tend to gamble. SF was and we didn't get burned except the perception of this team in Houston did suffer. But the "two star" thinking might lead us down dangerous paths. I'm definitely not thinking you'd wish this, but the conventional thinking in Philly is AI must leave, but it's going to be difficult $91 million contract. So teams that have "young" max contracts are realistically the only one Philly can deal with. We don't have a lot of flexibility either, but moreso than they. Where we have a worse situation is there's really only a handful of pgs out there that anybody wants. The only concession we have to make here is we don't get a star in return. The tricky part is going to be - as always - is when CD and JVG evaluate where they think Yao will be next season. If Yao hits 25, has two years of experience and weight training and has had enough of JVG's cussing well - much becomes moot. But if they throw this upon Yao it's risky. I just hope that they don't come to the conclusion we're at least two years away and then turn shrink and start a rookie pg next season thinking Yao is going to scream at him the way he won't with SF or Mark Jackson or whatever ex-Knick we bring in. It seems likely that's what we do, but a star's not unfathomable. But from where I sit it's undesirable.
Why? Are you jealous that such thought-provoking and awe-inspiring threads like this one: are not getting the same amount of views and replies as this one?
My two arguments agiainst this otherwise valid position are these: A) I have been impressed with the Memphis improvement method, and do see it as a viable alternative to using the bulk of your cap on 2 or 3 players. However, that said, I am unconvinced that it will lead to rings. It is, I think, a formula for success in the regular season, but when stars come to the fore is in the playoffs. As support for my position is that another of the architechts in the West mold, Joe Dumars, conceded the need for star quality when in an actual position to make a serious run in the playoffs this year with his acquisition of Wallace. I think it makes you a better team, in short, and if you don;t have the legit 2 stars to build around it's a better route than trying to build around lesser stars who then become overvalued, but I don't see it as a means to a champiuonship, merely regular season success, and I want it all. B) We are one of the few teams to posses a legit center/star around which to build. That negates the value of having a herd a la Memphis, and moreover playing that style would decrease the natural advantage a team with a legit cneter posseses.
Who's the second star on San Antonio? (even last year, I don't think you could include Robinson in his diminished capacity as a star)
MacBeth, you're not wrong. I disagree. Your posts are a little different though. Regarding Detroit's trade for Ben Wallace which is the only argument you make that I don't see as wracked with emotion (of course rational though) well... Detroit wants to compete with Indiana/New Jersey, good for them and they're a good team. All three of those teams are playoff worthy. Think any of them get out of the second round in the WC? We have a different set of problems, and a flegeling of a solution with probable cultural issues that all but idiots realize we have to give at least the benefit of the doubt. We both know that goes by the wayside in the next off-season, and I, for one can't disagree, but I'm not sure it's fair or the right thing to do. But this is big business and Yao wants it all, so here it comes. I'm curious what you'd recommend we do - but don't say - we can't do anything now. We'll have to rely on the misfortune of others and how other particulary frustrated WC GM's decide what they need to do. Re: Memphis, sorry we just disagree there too. That game last Saturday night when we beat them made me a believer. Even if they fold 4-0 and out they play basketball. We want to.
With Webber out most of this season, who's the Kings' 2nd Star behind Peja? Brad Miller"? Bibby? Calling either of them a "Star" is not unreasonable but it is a mild stretch. By most standards, they are solid vets who had played pretty unspectacularly prior to SAC. Who have been the "Stars" for the Pistons? Ben Wallace was pretty one dimensional until this season. Billups? Rip? But remember...the Pistons gave up a high-powered scorer in Stackhouse who had back to back seasons of 29.8 and 21.4 for Rip Hamilton who was coming off of 18 and 20 ppg seasons. Hamilton was a better fit and he was younger. Billups' last 2 contracts (MIN & DET) have been of the FA variety and he makes way less than Mobley. The Mavericks added more "Stars" and may not have as good of a team as they did last season. During last season with the Clipps, few here would have regarded Andre Miller as the 2nd "Star" to Carmello. Utah's 2nd "Star" to Kirilenko is? The Lakers prior to Malone and Payton had a very good winning percentage when Kobe was injured in spite of being ham-strung by Shaq's huge contract. IMHO, players who may not have been "Stars" in one system can become "Stars" in a different system. One teams role player can become a Star in a different system (Harpring for example). Bottomline for me is this. I already know we are not going to get equal value for Francis from an athleticism or scoring stand point. What we will get is some combination of experience, dependability, upside potential and fit. And that's enough for me. 2 lesser athletes who are shooters and not scorers is a better fit.
Gater, I love this thread. Doc if you're out there thank you. There's just knowlege, respect and this creepy feeling of sadness. Gater, if you have time for capology I'd appreciate it if you could tell me the AI deal can't happen.
Again, I'd like to draw the distinction between regular season success and winning championships. The only two exceptions to the rule that you need two legit stars to win a ring are Hakeem's 1st and Dunan's 2nd, and in both cases you had one of the top 2 or 3 players in the game playing out of his head during the playoff run. Also in both cases the teams in question got more than usual luck with regards to facing teams missing key stars ar devastating times. And even discounting those that's 2 in the last 30 or so, which I would call enough of a majority to correlate it with a rule.
I love Steve Francis. Along with TJ and Paul Pierce he is my favorite player. I dont think that Steve is ever going to be the conservative point guard that many of you guys want. With Steve Francis you are going to have to take some turnovers, but I think the extra points and rebounds tend to make up for that. Kind of like Walker and the 3, you wish that he wouldn't do it but the other things he does make up for it. I will admit that we would win more games if Steve took better care of the ball, but how many games that we have lost have actually been Steve's fault? A guy that handles the ball for 40 mins every night is going to cough it up. Before we decide to trade Steve lets look at our other options first. We have two draft picks that COULD really help us (assuming that we draft seniors who can just play a role), we have cap room (Rasheed?), and decent trade bait (Cato/Mo). Considering the fact that it does not seem like Yao will be able to play big minutes like Hakeem, Duncan, Shaq we need to have another guy who can pick up the slack. Adding 2-3 players might change the entire scheme we have and who knows, maybe such a change would benefit both Steve and Yao and that is what we should be looking for.
MacBeth, fair enough, let's go through the lens of Texas NBA history. We're the exception? Hell yes we are. For all that don't get TD's game sorry you're missing it. David Robinson was as classy and talented, but he gets trashed here because he played center and Dream dusted his butt when it most mattered. Us? Well in '81 Moses hadn't reached his peak, but if he had we win that series. In '86 Dream wasn't ready, had all the talent in the world around him and virtually announced to the entire NBA "you all suck". If anyone says they knew Olajuwon could do that they're lying. I was one of his biggest fans, was at U of H with him, knew about his upside, potential. If anyone could have "dreamed" what he put in our faces, well you're still lying. Yao. Damn, Dream arrived here speaking better English than most Americans do (ennunciation was an issue) and he hung out at U of H for 3 years - had a lot of civic love. Yao. Damn he must be both the exception and the rule. That's the aspect I am most uncomfortable with the current reality. E,Moses, Dream that's pressure. The 1.7 billion Chinese pop. must forgive me here and undertand but this franchise is big business and we in Houston don't care about our center being Chinese, Cajun, Nigerian, Martian,,, sorry I meant Philadelphian or whatever. So you roll out the ball, who do you want to pick it up? I don't want who we can't get and I refuse to miss Steve in this way. My disagreements are about semantics. But the rest's going to be NBA lore, but more likely it will be NBA history. My regret is what I think Yao must be, and this team has to go upside/down to make it possible. It is about rings, and Yao, himself wants all of it. God bless him, he's made me an idiot. But sometimes that's beneficial.
