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Well, waddya know? Saddam really IS trying to build nukes...

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by treeman, Jan 21, 2003.

  1. treeman

    treeman Member

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    The fall of the Baghdad wall
    (Filed: 19/01/2003)

    The teams of UN inspectors sent to investigate Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction arsenal made a stunning breakthrough last week when they uncovered evidence of Iraq's attempts to build an atom bomb. Con Coughlin and Julian Coman in Washington report

    T hursday evening turned into a wild night at the al-Hyatt hotel in Baghdad, for the 150 or so United Nations weapons inspectors who have made it their home.

    Jordanian-imported wine flowed, glasses of whiskey were handed round and, as one witness put it, "the men from the UN with their blue baseball caps and grey faces were suddenly smiling".

    During their two-and-a-half month stay in Iraq, the inspectors have not developed a reputation for holding late-night parties. Almost all are soberly in bed by 11pm, in order to be up the next day at 6.30 for a breakfast of fried eggs, omelettes or bread rolls. But this was a special occasion.

    During the day, the United Nations Monitoring Verification and Inspection Commission (Unmovic), had made the first significant find since its arrival in Iraq.

    At the Ukhaider weapons depot, 90 miles south-west of Baghdad, inspectors had discovered 12 hidden artillery shells designed to carry chemical weapons. "We finally found something shaped like a weapon and not like a test-tube," said one inspector.

    But while in public the inspectors were celebrating their discovery of the artillery shells, in private experts from the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) in Vienna were digesting the details of a substantially more significant find - the blueprint of Saddam's nuclear weapons project.

    On the same morning that a team of inspectors had found the 12 artillery shells, another team of nuclear weapons experts had paid a surprise visit to the homes of two of Saddam's leading nuclear physicists who worked for Iraq's top secret for the Ministry of Military Industrialisation (MMI).

    The ministry, which is run by Saddam's younger son Qusay, recently replaced the Military Industrialisation Organisation (MIO), the institution which historically has controlled the development of Saddam's weapons of mass destruction arsenal since the mid-1970s.

    In their eagerness to get into the scientists' homes, some of the inspectors had been seen jumping over a garden wall.

    Once inside they found what one Western official has described as a "highly significant" batch of documents which, on closer inspection, revealed that Saddam's scientists were continuing development work on producing an Iraqi nuclear weapon.

    Although these documents are this weekend still being examined by IAEA experts to establish the current state of Saddam's nuclear weapons programme, the discovery could well turn out to be the "smoking gun" that officials in the Bush administration have pinned their hopes on obtaining in order to justify launching military action against Baghdad.

    When Saddam submitted his 12,000 page dossier to the United Nations Security Council at the end of last year, the Iraqi leader insisted that Baghdad no longer had any interest in developing nuclear weapons, and that Iraq's nuclear research programme had been discontinued.

    The documents seized at the homes of the two scientists, however, confirm what Western intelligence has been arguing all along, that Saddam is continuing with his quest to develop the first Arab atom bomb.

    Ever since the inspectors arrived back in Iraq two-and-a-half months ago, Saddam has gone to extraordinary lengths to conceal the true nature of his nuclear weapons programme.

    Key Iraqi scientists have been given new identities and smuggled out of the country to take up postings in the Far East, and top secret documents have been hidden in the homes of Iraqi government officials.

    Saddam's concealment operation had been so successful that the UN inspectors were having difficulty finding anything of any significance.

    What made last week's breakthrough possible was a radical improvement in relations between UN weapons inspectors and Western intelligence.

    When the inspectors first arrived in Baghdad last November, American and British intelligence officials in particular were reluctant to hand over sensitive information because they were not convinced that they could trust the UN.

    Having eventually satisfied themselves that the inspection teams could handle top-secret information, intelligence officers provided the inspectors with the information which resulted in last week's discovery of the artillery shells and the nuclear documentation.

    Certainly the discoveries could not have been better timed. Only last Wednesday, during a meeting of a Parliamentary Labour Party that is less and less minded to go to war with Saddam, Tony Blair had taken a hammering from his growing number of critics.

    Glenda Jackson, MP, was particularly critical, making the acid remark that the only "weapon of mass destruction" located thus far turned out to be a kitchen knife used to stab a Manchester policeman searching for non-existent ricin. Mr Blair told MPs to "wait and see". Miraculously, the next day, there was something to look at.

    Even so it is unlikely that last week's discoveries will resolve the fundamental dilemma that is developing at the UN Security Council.

    The cat and mouse game between the weapons inspectors and Saddam is not the only one in town. The US administration and chief weapons inspector Hans Blix are also involved in their own private war of position.

    During the fruitless helicopter rides to deserted warehouses and the unsuccessful lightening raids in white UN jeeps, a persistent question had preoccupied administration officials in Washington as well as Mr Blix.

    What would a "find" - even one as significant as the nuclear weapons dossier - signify? A case for extending the inspections or a licence to go to war against Saddam?

    "Last week's breakthrough has become the latest issue to show the divide between Blix and George Bush," said a western UN diplomat.

    "During the week, when nothing had yet been found, Mr Blix had said he expected to continue inspections after his report to the UN on January 27 before making another report in March. The Bush administration wants much more flexibility than that for military action."

    On Friday, Mr Blix travelled to three European capitals to make his case. Because his nuclear experts were still examining the documents taken from the homes of the Iraqi nuclear scientists, Mr Blix deliberately confined his comments to Thursday's discovery of the artillery shells which, he said, demonstrated that inspections were making an impact.

    But the content of both the discoveries was of relatively minor importance. He needed more time, particularly to examine the true extent of Saddam's nuclear capability. His colleague, the head of the UN nuclear weapons agency, Mohammed ElBaradei, talked about a "few months".

    Before an hour of talks with Mr Blair at Chequers on Friday, Mr Blix, while making no reference to the significance of the nuclear find, said that he did not consider the shells the "smoking gun" that would justify war.

    In Paris, after meeting with the French president Jacques Chirac, he said that the chemical warheads were "not a big thing". In Brussels, he privately told diplomats that the warheads were "empty" and added that he did not think that the United States could prevent an extension of inspections well beyond the end of January.

    The Bush administration took an exactly opposite view. Earlier in the week, Mr Bush had said he was "sick and tired" of Iraq's constant deceptions.

    On Friday afternoon, after the apparent evidence of yet another such deception, the president's spokesman Ari Fleischer said that the inspectors' findings were "troubling and serious".

    Colin Powell, the Secretary of State, then gave stark signals that the end of January could signal the end of Saddam's last chance to disarm.

    "Mr Powell believes that a persuasive case will be there at the end of the month that Iraq is not co-operating (with the UN resolution)," said the State Department spokesman Richard Boucher. "There's no point in continuing forever, going on, if Iraq is not co-operating."

    For some former weapons inspectors, Mr Blix's continued caution has provided an exasperating spectacle. "I'm not sure what the blazes it is that inspectors and the world's diplomats expect in terms of a smoking gun," said Richard O Spertzel, a former head of the UN biological weapons inspections unit.

    "If it's loaded munitions, this is a waste of their time. How many filled munitions did we find in more than seven years? None."

    Today, Mr Blix and Mohammed ElBaradei meet for two days of talks with Iraqi government officials. Mr Blix will demand an explanation for omissions in Iraq's December weapons declaration to the UN. According to Baghdad's UN ambassador, any "misunderstandings" can be ironed out.

    Mr Blix, while in Paris, also called for Iraq to take active steps to demonstrate that it was not playing games with the inspectors. But in Washington there is a distinct sense, compounded by the week's events, that patience is almost at an end.

    State Department officials brief that the US will not feel bound to seek a new UN Security council resolution to go to war, if it remains convinced that Iraq is determined to acquire weapons of mass destruction.

    In London, a Labour minister said: "Blair feels the need of a UN resolution more than Bush does. Blair would still quite like it if it could be got. But the UK view is that we don't need it but we'd like it."

    The UN weapons inspectors have had their finest hour and deserved a party to celebrate. But none of the "Americans", as ordinary Iraqis like to call them, are in any doubt that there may not be much time left for another triumph.

    In an off-guard moment at the end of an exhausting week, Hiro Ueki, an Unmovic spokesman, suddenly gave a wry smile: "Make no mistake. We will be here on January 28. But I'm not sure where we will be on January 29."


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/01/19/wirq219.xml

    Well, gee, whoda thunkit?
     
  2. RiceRocket1

    RiceRocket1 Member

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    Blix clearly has his own agenda. It'll be interesting to see just what does happen come January 28. I hope we lay out all the evidence we no doubt have and go take care of this problem.
     
  3. B-Bob

    B-Bob "94-year-old self-described dreamer"

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    Sarcastic thread titles help your argument in what way, exactly, Major Treeman? The more the inspectors find, the better. And if we can disarm that idiot Saddam peacefully, in conjunction with the UN, no US soldiers have to die, no Iraqis have to die. I have a tiny shred of optimism here.
     
  4. MadMax

    MadMax Contributing Member

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    this seems like really signficant news...why haven't the other news agencies picked this up yet?
     
  5. Pole

    Pole Houston Rockets--Tilman Fertitta's latest mess.

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    You can bet this wasn't supposed to be reported. Some empty chemical warheads and launch vehicles are something the world can know about. This find is much more sensitive intelligence, and releasing it to the press only gives the Iraqis more time to cover the tracks they thought were hidden.

    I bet some heads will roll for whomever leaked this, and I'm sure this wasn't picked up the major US press for good reason. They know If they bite the hand that feeds them, they'll be the last to get that "scoop" next time.

    This is the kind of stuff we don't need to know about yet.....no matter how much the anti-war people are crying about lack of evidence.
     
  6. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Contributing Member

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  7. Pole

    Pole Houston Rockets--Tilman Fertitta's latest mess.

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    I also wouldn't be surprised if THIS is the reason why Iraq has made such a big deal about the chemical warheads, has "located" some more, and has pledged their "assistance" to the inspection effort.

    At this time, it's in both side's best interest to divert attention away from this matter. Of course, in the background, you can just bet that both sides are scrambling.

    It's a race now.
     
  8. DaDakota

    DaDakota If you want to know, just ask!
    Supporting Member

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    Screw it, take out France after Iraq.....

    Those panzies roll over for anyone.

    :)

    DD
     
  9. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Contributing Member

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    'France would never "associate ourselves with military intervention that is not supported by the international community," de Villepin added. "We think that military intervention would be the worst possible solution."'

    Even if France is the only country in the international community that opposes intervention? France is such a principled country. :rolleyes:
     
  10. No Worries

    No Worries Contributing Member

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    same paper, next day ...

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/01/20/wirq220.xml

    Iraqi scientist denies papers tell of
    nuclear programme
    By Neil Tweedie
    (Filed: 20/01/2003)

    The Edinburgh-educated Iraqi nuclear scientist found with
    3,000 pages of research documents insisted yesterday
    that the papers seized by United Nations inspectors were
    not evidence of a secret nuclear programme.

    Faleh Hassan Hamza complained of Mafia-like tactics
    adopted by the UN and said he was prepared to go "line
    by line, word by word" through the documents that
    inspectors took from his home to demonstrate that they
    had "nothing to do with weapons of mass destruction".

    Exiled Iraqi scientists yesterday said Mr Hamza, 55, who
    obtained his PhD from Edinburgh University, was only a
    medium-level official in Iraq's nuclear programme. But
    they disagreed over the significance of the documents
    found in his home.

    The International Atomic Energy Agency said the
    documents had not previously been declared, and said
    they were still being analysed. However, it disclosed that
    they included information on Iraq's attempts to enrich
    uranium for a nuclear bomb by using lasers.

    Hussain al-Shahristani, a former nuclear scientist jailed
    and tortured by Saddam's henchmen after he refused to
    take part in the secret nuclear bomb project, said: "If the
    information is about experiments in laser enrichment
    carried out in the 1980s, it's nothing new.


    "The real significance is the fact that these documents
    were found in his home. It supports information we have
    received that Saddam has given orders for documents to
    be dispersed among scientists, members of the secret
    police and senior Ba'ath party officials."

    Imad Khadduri, an exile based in Canada who worked for
    the Iraqi Atomic Energy Commission from 1968 until 1998
    and knew Mr Hamza, said the information concerned was
    obsolete.

    Mr Khadduri said it was ridiculous to suggest that Iraq had
    a functioning nuclear weapons programme. He added that
    all meaningful research had ceased following Iraq's defeat
    in the 1991 Gulf war.

    "I cannot believe that Hans Blix thinks he has got
    something here," he said. "The information is years old.
    It's been gone over before. He's looking down the wrong
    end of his binoculars."

    Mr Khadduri said Mr Hamza carried out small-scale
    research into the use of lasers for uranium enrichment in
    the 1980s. He described Mr Hamza as a bit-part player in
    the Iraqi nuclear programme of the 1980s.

    "Laser enrichment turned out to be a cul-de-sac. It wasn't
    practical on an industrial scale. Hamza was a small fish -
    not a weapons researcher at all. Why they should go after
    him when he's retired or whatever I do not know," said Dr
    Khadduri.


    Mr Hamza is just one of many Iraqi scientists educated at
    British universities. Dr Rihab Taha, widely known as "Dr
    Germ" for her leadership of Iraq's quest for biological
    weapons, studied plant diseases at the University of East
    Anglia.

    Her husband, Gen Amer Rashid, a former head of the
    military industrialisation commission, read engineering at
    Birmingham University. They met in New York.

    © Copyright of Telegraph Group Limited 2003.
     
  11. MadMax

    MadMax Contributing Member

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    that would be why, no worries! thanks for the link...
     
  12. haven

    haven Member

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    The situation amuses me to no end.

    Does anybody really believe that Iraq has totally given up its WMD programs?

    I don't think they're really the issue. Any nation is going to have WMD. Just about every nation is illegally researching such weapons at any given time. The true problem (depending how cynical you are) is either: 1. Saddam is a regional threat that cannot be trusted with such, 2. Saddam is too much an enemy of the US to be trusted with them (and isn't powerful enough to stand up to us), or 3. Bush wants to increase security for American oil interests.

    I really don't have a definitive position on which of those possibilities is accurate (though there's probably something to all of them), but to believe that we're really looking for evidence of WMD in Iraq as if we actually have any doubts is silly. It's sort of like a little game... if we catch them red handed, then we can pretend that justifies invasion (wink wink, nudge nudge).

    Invasion may or may not be justified... but any invasion would and should be predicated on other grounds... not the existence of a WMD program that everyone (including France) must be 99.9999% sure exists. International politics in the Western world have devolved from necessary security interest negotiation to petty gamesmanship. They should all be embarrassed.
     
  13. PhiSlammaJamma

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    Agree. Who isn't researching weapons. Nor would I blame them for trying to research weapons under normal circumstances. But Iraq was told not to do this research because they invaded another country. That's the bottom line. So if you are told not to do something by the world then you don't do it. That's the problem. They are and have proven to be a threat to peace. That's not something the world needs. Maybe when they've proven they can co-exist with the world they can go back to building a "Defense" program.
     
  14. Refman

    Refman Contributing Member

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    The weapons inspectors could search from now until the end of time and not find it all. Saddam has bcome quite adept at hiding things and obfuscating. If we do find evidence of a nuclear program...then it must be destroyed militarily.
     
  15. NJRocket

    NJRocket Contributing Member

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    I'm getting a little sick of hearing "time is running out on Saddam to disarm" and crap like that. His "disarming" himself of WMD means absolutely nothing. He has used them before and he will use them again. We are being WAY to lenient with this guy and we are setting ourselves up to get burned. We need to take care of the problem and if that means wiping Iraq off of the map, so be it.
     
  16. No Worries

    No Worries Contributing Member

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    Better said, the wrong country.

    Iran == good

    Kuwaitt == bad
     
  17. MadMax

    MadMax Contributing Member

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    and you point is??? iran was aligned with the Soviet Union and was VERY anti-US way back when. you might remember we were once on the opposite side of a war with japan...things change.

    by the way, there were certain terms of surrender which we and the world held japan to at the close of that war.
     
  18. Buck Turgidson

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    Hopefully you understand the differing geopolitical situations in 1979 and 1991 and the rationale (which was correct) behind the U.S.'s support of Iraq in the '80s.
     
  19. F.D. Khan

    F.D. Khan Contributing Member

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    Yeah Yeah! Wipe them off the map and kill millions of people.
    When we're talking about this guy and his government and you in all your brilliance are talking about genocide. If someone ever used that tone or "wiping of the map" of your beloved Israel then you would be screaming anti-semitism.

    Why don't you think before openly claiming genocide is the answer.
     
  20. NJRocket

    NJRocket Contributing Member

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    You mean the same genocide that Saddam used against his own people? Oh, ok.

    If Israel had WMD and were a threat of using them , I'd say the same thing. Hey Khan I have a newsflash for you...I'm not the only one who thinks this is the answer, I'm just one of the only ones who says it. For that matter, give it a month or so and you'll be able to buy some nice land in Iraq.

    We are bombing Iraq into the next millenium...deal with it.
     

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