shanna -- I was responding to this statement: Essentially, this is the one year to get free agents and set the core of the team for the next several years. If you want to qualify that now and say this is the one year we can afford expensive free agents, well then, yeah, probably. This is also the year where we can re-sign a bunch of our existing players. No, they've been with the Rockets a year, Webber hasn't. They're also complimentary players, so they were added to fit the existing team (the Rockets), not bought to make a new team. So in my opinion, the above statement is false. You get this opportunity once every 5 to 10 years (look what Orlando had to do to get under the cap last year) -- you don't squander that opportunity by focusing on a 1-year free agent... Maybe so, but I don't think it has any value in putting together the team for the future... If Hakeem wants fair-market-value, then I don't think he can fit into our plans. We wouldn't take on any other 37-year old ex-superstar center on a 1-yr, $6-$8M contract. It shouldn't be any different for Hakeem... The Rockets have proved in the past that they don't agree with these statements. They've flat-out "sacrificed their future" by refusing a trade for Hakeem that would have made them younger. So, while you think this opportunity only comes around every 5-10 years...how often does a team offer two lottery picks and change for an over-the-hill center? When does that opportunity come around again? The Rockets have proven that they don't necessarily agree with your philosophy, and that Hakeem is not just another "37-year-old ex-superstar center".
If you want to qualify that now and say this is the one year we can afford expensive free agents, well then, yeah, probably. This is also the year where we can re-sign a bunch of our existing players. If you're going to use free-agents to add to the "core" of the team, this is the year to do it. That's my only point. Maybe resigning the current core (Anderson, Taylor) is the better option -- I'm not against that. My only point is that Dream should not play a role in that decision, because he's not going to be a core part in 2 years. This is the only year we will have ALL options available to us. Teams kill for opportunities like this. No, they've been with the Rockets a year, Webber hasn't. They're also complimentary players, so they were added to fit the existing team (the Rockets), not bought to make a new team. So if we add Webber to fit with Francis, Mobley, and Griffin, then in one year Webber will be a home-grown Rocket. No? Again, I don't see how that's relevent at all. The Rockets have proved in the past that they don't agree with these statements. They've flat-out "sacrificed their future" by refusing a trade for Hakeem that would have made them younger. Actually, quite the opposite. Everything I've seen says that they sacrificed that trade to avoid a PR-nightmare (which could also have affected the new arena referendum), not out of any type of loyalty. They were completely ready to make that deal until word leaked and people in Houston got pissed. If they weren't willing to do it, they wouldn't have bothered to negotiate all the details. There's no major PR issue this time with the widely accepted youth movement, and Hakeem's oft-stated willingness to play for other teams takes out most of the loyalty issues. ------------------ http://www.swirve.com ... more fun than a barrel full of monkeys and midgets. [This message has been edited by shanna (edited July 05, 2001).]
The timing here is indeed a key. Just because players cannot sign for a couple of weeks doesn't mean they cannot agree in principal sooner. They can't put pen to paper but they can agree. I think of this like the recruiting period in college sports. Players don't sign letters of intent until the national signing day but teams know, for the most part, who will be part of their squad the next year or two. My guess is that players aren't going to want to wait around for teams. Players are going to listen to everyone and make their decisions fairly quickly. I fully expect to start hearing legitimate stories about "so and so will sign with Team X on the 18th..." before too much longer. ------------------ How the hell should I know why God would allow the Holocaust. I don't even know how the electric can opener works. - from Hannah and Her Sisters
Just because players cannot sign for a couple of weeks doesn't mean they cannot agree in principal sooner. They can't put pen to paper but they can agree. You think Taylor is going to agree to join another team before he can sign, without waiting to hear the Rockets offer? If so, then his desire to be here -- which is one of the things people focus on -- isn't all that great. If our reason not to pursue the best possible option (again, presuming this is Webber) is that we're scared of losing our other options before they can even sign, then that's just plain sad, in my opinion. ------------------ http://www.swirve.com ... more fun than a barrel full of monkeys and midgets.
It is poor decision-making to not use the Dream windfall before we are locked into being over the cap for a long time. Windfalls like this do not happen very often. The ability to land exception deals and freaking Francis/Drexler trades always exist. Unless you simply do not want to spend money, you can't help but not look to take advantage of this fleeting window of opportunity. You have likely 2 yrs to use the Dream windfall. This summer or next. You can use it in trades or straight free agency. imo, you should attempt to use it on one new player who requires more than any cap exception will allow. And TheFreak, admit it. When we did the Francis trade, you were against it. Right? We have archives.
Actually, quite the opposite. Everything I've seen says that they sacrificed that trade to avoid a PR-nightmare (which could also have affected the new arena referendum), not out of any type of loyalty. They were completely ready to make that deal until word leaked and people in Houston got pissed. If they weren't willing to do it, they wouldn't have bothered to negotiate all the details. That's not actually how it went down. The Rockets were handed this deal by Toronto. Word was leaked ON PURPOSE to guage fan response which was not good. This did play a factor in the decision to keep Hakeem, but, ultimately, this was Rudy T putting his foot down because he really wants to see Dream retire a Rocket. They didn't agree to any details. They were presented with a deal and they mulled it over (as well as discretely checked with fans) before saying "no thanks." I know when and how the leak happened and it was done very much on purpose. I agree that it would have been a PR nightmare which is why they originally considered not doing it, but the final say was really Rudy's. In addition, there were concerns that Toronto was not exactly trustworthy after the Stoudamire craziness. THAT story WAS leaked by the Raptors to give themselves an advantage in finding a home for Mighty Mouse. Personally, I wouldn't ever do a deal with Toronto again after that. That was down right ridiculous. ------------------ How the hell should I know why God would allow the Holocaust. I don't even know how the electric can opener works. - from Hannah and Her Sisters
Shanna has made some of the best arguments for Webber that I have heard. The timming issue in my oppinion is huge. Rarely does a team that has the talent that this Rockets team have get an oppertunity to aquire a true superstar at a position of need. If we don't get Webber and sign Dream for a year then next year when Dreams contract and Walts contract expire then we should once again be in position to aquire a good free agent. But who will be available? Vince Carter? He may be a great player but he hardley fills a position of need. IMO Griffin will be a superior all around player than VC and they currently occupy the same position. Antawn Jaimison? He's a great player but still sort of a tweener that isn't a true super star like Webber. As I understand the CBA both of those players will be restricted free agents anyway so we would have to give up a lot to get them. After next year Francis contract will be comming do and we simply will not have the money under the cap to go after a top flight free agent. This is our one best chance. Free agent super stars that fill a position of need that we can afford don't come around very often. If we have any intention of using free agency to add something substantial to this team this is the one and only legitimate chance we will have over the next decade if we keep this team together. When Mobley comes due again his contract will be close to the max, Francis contract will be max as will Griffs at the end of his three years if all goes as we hope. With out some extreamly good luck in the draft this may be our last chance to aquire a real difference maker. Remember roll players are available in every draft and every free agent crop but not Chris Webber type super stars. The real key to our interest in Chris Webber IMO is not a money issue but its how we see Griffin in a couple of years. At 19 Griffin is already 6'9" (some reports have him at 6'10") and 222lbs. It is a very real possibility that Eddie could be 6'10" or 6'11" and 240lbs in the next couple of years. Does Rudy plan an growing Eddie into a Power Forward like Minnesota did with KG? Is that the real reason that a 1st round pick was used on T-Rock? Is Morris our real SF of the future? I think these are the real questions that should determine our interest in Webber. If its Rudy's plan to groom Eddie into a 4 and use Morris or Langhi as our 3 then retaining MoTay and trying to find an exceptable 5 that can compete for the next ten years should be our priority. ------------------
CBFC's example is PERFECT! The Rangers problem after getting A-Rod was pitching and defense, the Rockets problem after getting Webber would be a center and interior defense. Who is the center on the team? ------------------ "Win if you can, lose if you must but always cheat!" - Jesse Ventura [This message has been edited by RocksMillenium (edited July 05, 2001).]
It's not even close. Our biggest problem is interior deffense and interior rebounding. Period. Webber brings that. With the Rangers their problem is pitching. Period. When all of their pitchers have era's at 6.0 or higher then your team has no chance. The Rangers had a good deffense and great hitting. Did A-Rod improve a position of Weakness? Well did he? No he did not. Now would C-Webb address a position of Weakness for the Rockets? Well would he? I'll let you answer that one. ------------------
Knock yourself out big guy. I guarantee you you will not find anything about me being against the Francis trade. I lauded it as a stroke of genius by the Rockets.
I would agree with this statement more if there was a Center that I thought would accomplish more than Cato + Webber. Marc Jackson + Mo Taylor are nothing to brag about. They're both mediocre rebounders, w/ both of their games more specialized for the offense. Jackson is a poor blocker and I doubt would 'bring out the good' in Mo in the same way in which Dream made us forget about Mo's problems this past year. If you pull in Webber, your rebounds and your offense are taken care of. He also cleans up Francis and Mobley gambles w/ above average defense and blocking. With less pressure on Cato to up his aggression b/c of a poor PF, I also feel that he could stay on the court longer. Regardless of crispee's concerns that he jumps for headfakes, the guy can get back up again to block the ball... and he's long. Pair him up w/ Webber and I'll bet that Cato will look as strong as Ratliff (what can I say, CBFC inspired me). Great point about taking Francis' option or getting the extension. That's coming up soon. Taking care of things this summer just became a bit more urgent.
Alright then TheFreak, Why are you against using the Dream windfall, as some sort of GM philosophy about status quo or something. Nice how you weasled out of that part of my post big guy, Mr big post count making mockery of the BBS on Draft day, hoping we won't land anyone big, so you could start a The BBS is a Whiney b**** thread to laugh at us all ....
It's not even close. Our biggest problem is interior deffense and interior rebounding. Period. Webber brings that. With the Rangers their problem is pitching. Period. When all of their pitchers have era's at 6.0 or higher then your team has no chance. The Rangers had a good deffense and great hitting. Did A-Rod improve a position of Weakness? Well did he? No he did not. Now would C-Webb address a position of Weakness for the Rockets? Well would he? I'll let you answer that one. Actually A-Rod helped improve their interior defense near him and the offense, but that's not the point. I'm comparing the Rangers financial diffulties in signing players, particularly pitchers after they signed A-Rod to the problems we would have if we signed Webber! Webber helps our interior offense and rebounding, we sacrifice signing a competent center, adding bench help, and anything else that we want for years to come because he will tie up the cap room! I don't have a problem with Webber the player, I have a problem with what the Rockets have to do to get the guy! So he helps our rebounding and interior offense at the PF position, but cripples our center position and any chance to improve it. You can tear into me all you want crash, that isn't going to get us the money to sign a center if Webber sucks up all of our available cap space. ------------------ "Win if you can, lose if you must but always cheat!" - Jesse Ventura [This message has been edited by RocksMillenium (edited July 05, 2001).]
I wouldn't break the bank on Webber and count on him being around in 4 -6 years. He hasn't made a habbit of sticking around any of the places he has played. He did manage to stick around Washington for 4 years though. But his loyalty to a team is still questionable in my opinion. The great Celtic teams, the present day Lakers, etc., all had consistency. We have young players, let's give them time to grow together and improve. Though if we could get the line-up that ZRB mentioned then I wouldn't mind getting Webber. ------------------ [This message has been edited by Franchisedream (edited July 05, 2001).] [This message has been edited by Franchisedream (edited July 05, 2001).]
Would it be possible to sign Webber AND one of the FA centers (Jackson, Mohammed et al)? Lets assume improving the center position is necessary to take it to the next level (that is assuming that the arguments really justify this as a necessary final condition for the Rockets to have a shot). Couldn't the Rockets get Webber for $10 million (which would still make him the highest paid Rocket) a season explaining to him the (presumably) obvious necessity and then still sign a 5 with the 5 to 6 million left over? Then the lineup would be New Center (key component we must have - according to some), Webber, Griffin, Mobley, Francis. Bench of Langhi, Bullard, KT, Walt, Cato, Morris, and Moochie (could we still sign him?). The sweet part is that we can use this very same brilliant reasoning (you take a nice raise but not the max = we have a legit championship contender) on the New Center & Webber. ------------------
If webber is the answer or not, who knows? But if you think that Les is going to give into Hakeems demands, at the cost of the Rockets future? then you are mistaken. The Rockets have cap space this year, and possible next year to sure up as much talent as they can. I predict the rockets will move without Hakeem and then offer him 5 million, est., a little more than the 4.5 million exception that other teams will offer. Dream is DREAMING if he thinks that somebody else is going to offer him more. ------------------
I think if we lose Taylor, we're going to hurt the team chemistry. True, Webber is a better player than Taylor but by know means is Taylor a flop. He's a solid power forward in this league. With Francis ,Mobley and Griffin on the team, we have more than enough scoring, not to mention Mo T's 15 points a game. All we need are good role players who can come in and give you good and productive minutes. As far as Olajuwon, he's still the best center on this team, but we have to face the fact that he's not going to improve all that much, he's on the downside of his career, although it's hard for him and other's to accept that.(just to let you know he's still my all-time favorite) but we all have to face reality that he's not going to be around forever. We have to look towrds the future. And I think we have the future on our team already. ------------------ TheMugg
You may be the mistaken one. We will most definitely have cap room next year if we don't land Webber. All we need to do is sign Dream to a one yr contract. I am all for signing dream to a blank check if it is for one yr.
I do not think that I am mistaken. There is a reason that Les is a rich, successful businessman. He seizes on opportunities to grow his business, for the future, and will not risk the future by breaking the bank for Hakeem. He wants Hakeem back, and will offer him more than any other team will pay (a little more than the 4.5 million exception). But Hakeem is a big risk, and if history continues, Hakeem will be lucky to last half the season, (before his ongoing health problems are a factor). If god gave us a guarantee that Hakeem could be healthy for the whole season, and not whine & complain about touches, then Hakeem is worth more. ------------------
Sorry RocksMillenium, Wasn't trying to tear into you I just get a little carried away sometimes. I understand the point about the money but lets look at it another way. Lets say the Rangers had a chance to get Pedro Marntenez instead of A-Rod. Pair that with what was already one of the best hitting clubs in all of the majors last year and you have a real contender. Although A-Rod improved the Rangers he did not improve a position that needed improvement. I think Webber improves a part of the Rockets that really needs improving. And with 8.5 deffensive rebounds and 1.7 blocks a game and 1.5 steals he is doing some good work on the deffensive side as well. But don't get me wrong, I am all for keeping Mo instead of CWebb if Rudy T has a plan to get us a (long term)strong deffensive low post presence. If that plan is to find us an adiquate center in the future while grooming Eddie for the 4 then I'm all for it. I like what Taylor gives us at the offensive end but unless he can seriously improve on his 3.9 deffensive rebounds per game then we have got to find some deffensive rebounds by someone other than our guards or our fast break will never get off of the ground. ------------------ [This message has been edited by crash5179 (edited July 05, 2001).]
