We just lost the war in Iraq w/ a picture

What's even more amazing about that one, rim, is that the skin/religious/geographic connection was at one time widely used as an assumed connection by supporters to rationalize the invasion of Iraq as an extension of the response to 9-11.


Chris Matthews pointed out last night that polls show that many, many Americans still see the invasion of Iraq as 'payback' for 9-11...

 

* The military brass has known about this since January. It has only become publicly known because of the photos.

I know several people have been charged and/or relieved of duty for this incident... My biggest question is whether those actions were taken when the military learned about the incident or when it became public this week?

If it's the latter, I think that says a lot about how seriously the military takes this incident, ie "it was OK until it was public - now we have to look like we're tough on the violation." If it was the former, that also speaks volumes about how seriously they took it the other way - that it was entirely unacceptable.

 

rimrocker -

i know what bush is talking about, actually....i've heard from countless people that "those people aren't capable of running a democracy."

that does carry with it racist, or at least nationalistic, qualities, i think. or at least those overtones can be perceived, because i've thought the same thing. it implies that we as americans are good enough and smart enough to make it work..but that the arab world is not.

maybe that's not really what's meant...but it can certainly be perceived by those statements.

 

Bush is disgusted too. I'm confused. He says in this article that this isn't how we do things in America. He also says the soldiers acts were "disgusting." Does he hate America too now?

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040430/D82986DO0.html

 

Agreed. Today Bush stated that he was disgusted, and that they would be investigated and taken care of. But it's been under investigation since January. The disgust comes after the pic becomes public, not after we knew about it, or for many months thereafter.

 

I would think that if these people have already been charged and/or relieved of duty for this incident, it was the former not the latter. Didn't these pictures just become public today?

 

Bush defends 'Mission Accomplished' speech


- - - - - - - - - - - -
Terence Hunt



April 30, 2004 | WASHINGTON (AP) -- President Bush on Friday defended his speech a year ago on the deck of an aircraft carrier proclaiming the end of major combat in Iraq and said ``we're making progress, you bet'' in bringing stability to the war-torn country.

Answering reporters' questions in the White House Rose Garden with Canadian Prime Minister Paul Martin at his side, Bush said that on the day he spoke aboard an aircraft carrier off San Diego, he also noted that "there was still difficult work ahead.'' It will be a year on Saturday since Bush stood on the deck of the aircraft carrier U.S.S. Abraham Lincoln beneath a banner proclaiming ``Mission Accomplished'' and announced that major combat in Iraq had ended.

Critics have derided the banner's declaration as U.S. casualties mounted over the past year, with fighting particularly deadly in recent weeks.

"A year ago I did give the speech from the carrier saying we had achieved an important objective, accomplished a mission, which was the removal of Saddam Hussein,'' Bush said.

"As a result, there are no longer torture chambers or mass graves or rape rooms in Iraq,'' the president said.

Bush was asked about recent photos showing Iraqi prisoners naked except for hoods covering their heads, stacked in a human pyramid, one with a slur written in English on his skin. That and other scenes of humiliation have led to criminal charges against six American soldiers. Arab television stations were leading their newscasts on Friday with the photos.

"I share a deep disgust that those prisoners were treated the way they were treated. Their treatment does not reflect the nature of the American people. That's not the way we do things in America. I didn't like it one bit,'' Bush said.

There currently are 138,000 U.S. troops in Iraq and 24,900 troops from coalition countries.

Relations between the United States and Canada were strained last year when Ottawa declined to support the U.S.-led war in Iraq. However, Canada has a significant military presence in Afghanistan.

Asked about those tensions, Bush said, "I want Canada doing what it feels comfortable doing in Iraq.''

Bush said of Martin, "He understands the danger of terror, he understands the opportunity of trade. We share values that are so important.''

 

MacB, to be fair: would any politician call a January press conference? Here's what it would have sounded like.

"Folks... I've got some photos I'd like to show you. Now, let me say right on front as a precipice for my comments, that sometimes the war on terror has to combine on the war on p*rnography. The results can be discomturbulating. To be honest, this was a tough week for American photography... Okay, on to the pictures..."

 

The story was on Drudge yesterday.

 

I would think that if these people have already been charged and/or relieved of duty for this incident, it was the former not the latter. Didn't these pictures just become public today?

The pictures were made public on Wednesday to Americans ... I would imagine the admin knew it was coming several days before that. They've been in contact with Iraqi newspapers on how to report the story - that was certainly before yesterday. So I would guess the admin has known the pictures were going to be public for at least a week or so. I don't know how quickly they'd relieve people of duty, but I can't imagine it would take that long.

If it happened in February, that would give me a very different impression than it if happened last week.

 

No, I agree, and I almost posted a qualifier stating that in this case, Bush was no worse than any politician would be. But felt that that diverted from Major's point, which wasn't really about how bad our response should be, but whether it was founded on political or moral grounds.

 

You would think there would be an investigation leading up to the relieving those responsible of their duties. Seems like that would take more than a few days.

Also, I'm willing to bet Bush was "disgusted" before he actually announced it today. Call me naive.

 

I've just skimmed this thread so my apologies if I'm repeating comments that others have made.

First. These pictures are real. The Pentagon has confirmed it and while some of the pictures posted on the link aren't the same as the ones widely shown on the news is because most of the news media has said that they selectively showed the ones that would be less offensive to viewing audiences. At least that's what the local CBS affiliate said. Like the killings of the contractors in Fallujah there apparently are many more photos that are much more offensive.

Second. I don't think these pictures mean we've lost Iraq. They certainly don't make things easier but I think its stretch to say that these will turn things so against us when attacking mosques have already darkened Iraqi, Arab, and Islamic feelings already.

What IMO might costs us Iraq is that we are hiring Baathists general to solve our problems in Fallujah. Weren't we supposed to be freeing the Iraqis from the Baathists?

I can see how we might want lower level Baathists like doctors, lawyers, teachers and junior officers but a general? Well there goes yet another rationale for the invasion. Are there any left.

Finally, I can understand how some soldiers can end up doing things like this. War really is Hell and it dehumanizes all sides. That said for our own collective morality and for building goodwill these soldiers need to be quickly, harshly and publically punished. If we are to even harbor the belief that we are on the side of right we have to expect a higher standard from our soldiers than our enemies or allies do.

 

You would think there would be an investigation leading up to the relieving those responsible of their duties. Seems like that would take more than a few days.


The relieving of duty occured before the investigation, from the report I read - can't find it offhand. That's normal procedure in these kinds of things. If a cop is involved in a questionable shooting, they are put on temporary leave or whatnot until the incident can be fully investigated.

Also, I'm willing to bet Bush was "disgusted" before he actually announced it today. Call me naive.

I'm sure he was. I'm curious whether he or the military planned to take any action against the offenders if it was not going to be public information. I just heard from a friend that he heard the individuals were relieved of duty in February. If that's the case, then I would say this is a non-issue in terms of overall American conduct (still a problem in terms of our international image, of course - that's going to be the case no matter what).

 

A side note:


Families of the 372nd tormented by stories of POW abuses in Iraq
Soldier detailed problems in journal sent to father in Md.


By Ariel Sabar, Gus Sentementes and Jeff Barker
Sun Staff

April 30, 2004

CUMBERLAND - For months, members of the 372nd Military Police Company harbored a terrible secret.

The Army Reserve unit based near here - whose service in Iraq made many of its members hometown heroes - had boasted six months ago of its credentials for a new security assignment at a prison west of Baghdad.

"We are relying heavily on our soldiers with correctional [officer] experience," said their newsletter, published in the local newspaper. "The regular Army can't touch us with experience."

But months later, the prison detail was disgraced in news reports across the world.

The Army said yesterday that 14 of the 17 soldiers implicated in an investigation of abuse of Iraqi detainees at Abu Ghraib prison are from the 372nd. They face either criminal or administrative charges.

To the proud reservists and their families, the publication of the allegations - that Iraqi prisoners were tormented and humiliated - was like opening a dark, musty room that had long ago been sealed off.

Among the few who had been hearing reports of the investigation since January was Ivan L. Frederick, 76, a World War II veteran from Mountain Lake Park in far Western Maryland.

His son, Staff Sgt. Ivan "Chip" Frederick, has been recommended for court-martial by a hearing officer. The final decision rests with the top American commander in Iraq.

In neat, handwritten block letters, the son wrote a journal about his Iraq experience and sent a copy to his father.

Sergeant Frederick, who described the abuse Wednesday night on the CBS program 60 Minutes II, says in the journal that he saw Iraqi prisoners placed in intolerable conditions.

"Prisoners were forced to live in damp cool cells," says an entry said to be from January. "MI [Military Intelligence] has also instructed us to place prisoners in an isolation cell with little or no clothes. No toilet or running water, no ventilation or window for as much as three days."

A 'different culture'

In the journal, Frederick says the unit was in a strange, almost unfathomable land. Like improperly supervised children, he says, members wanted to do their jobs but were uncertain exactly what was expected of them.

In civilian life, Frederick is an officer at a correctional center in Dillwyn, Va. His wife, Martha, works there, too, in the training department.

But his journal says his background wasn't enough to prepare him for his tenure in Iraq. His unit was mobilized in February 2003.

"I have had training dealing with convicted felons of the U.S.," the journal says. "I have never had any training dealing with POWs, civilian internees or detained persons. The prisoners here are of a complete different culture."

He wrote that prisoners were abused and forced to sleep in tents wet with rain.

"A prisoner with a clearly visible mental condition was shot with non-lethal rounds for standing near the fence singing, when a lesser means of force could have been used," he wrote.

"It's really very upsetting to me that the military is doing this," his father said. "They put him in there with no experience taking care of enemy prisoners of war."

Interviewed at his home, the white-haired man came to the door with a drawn expression to defend his son.

"I don't think he did those things unless he was ordered to do so," Frederick said.

'Stupid, kid things'

Another reservist, Lynndie R. England, 21, told her mother in January about potential problems at the Iraq prison.

England grew up in a trailer down a dirt road behind a saloon and a sheep farm in Fort Ashby, W.Va., a one-stoplight town about 13 miles south of Cumberland.

Yesterday afternoon, her mother, Terrie England, pressed her fingers to her lips when a reporter showed her a newspaper photo of her daughter smiling in front of what a caption said were nude Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad.

"Oh, my God," she said, her body stiffening as she sat on a cooler on the trailer's small stoop.

"I can't get over this," she said, taking a drag on her cigarette.

Lynndie England, a railroad worker's daughter who made honor roll at the high school near here, had enlisted in the 372nd for college money and the chance to widen her small-town horizons. In January, however, she gave her family the first inkling that something had gone woefully wrong.

"I just want you to know that there might be some trouble," she warned her mother in a phone call from Baghdad. "But I don't want you to worry."

Lynndie England said she was under orders to say no more. The military has told the family nothing; all the Englands know is that she has been detained, apparently in connection with the unit's alleged misconduct at the prison.

"Whether she's charged or not, I don't know," Terrie England said.

This was not supposed to be the fate of a girl who grew up hunting turkey or killing time with her sister at the local Dairy Dip, making wisecracks about the cars whizzing past.

"She wanted to see the world and go to college," said Terrie England, whose T-shirt bore a design of heart-shaped American flags. "Now the government turned their back on her, and everything's a big joke."

She held photos of her daughter in khakis, smiling atop a camel in Iraq.

At most, the 372nd's alleged abuses of prisoners were "stupid, kid things - pranks," Terrie England said, her voice growing bitter. "And what the [Iraqis] do to our men and women are just? The rules of the Geneva Convention, does that apply to everybody or just us?"

Everyone had been proud of Lynndie England. A Wal-Mart in nearby LaVale displays her photo on its Wall of Honor. The Mineral County courthouse in Keyser, W.Va., posts her photograph and those of other local soldiers under a banner that says: "We're hometown proud."

Lynndie England had found purpose, and love, in the Army. She got engaged last year to a fellow member of the 372nd, Charles Graner, who appears with his arm around her in the newspaper photo.

Now, Lynndie England is detained on a U.S. base - her family declined to say where - and is barred from leaving for anything besides her job. She has been demoted from the rank of specialist to private first class. And when she calls home, she says frustratingly little.

Destiny Goin said the Army had trained her sister Lynndie for an administrative job, "a paper pusher." Instead, she wound up helping to guard 900 Iraqi prisoners of war in a sprawling, squalid compound near Baghdad.

"It's just unjust, is what it is," Goin said.

The unit had other troubles as well.

Some of the members had recently been complaining to relatives about abruptly having their stay in Iraq extended.

Others openly fretted that there were too few soldiers, radios, vehicles and ammunition to carry out a perilous new mission providing security for supply convoys.

Unit member Javal Davis has been in Iraq since February 2003, said his wife, Zeenethia Davis, 27.

Davis and Frederick, the only two soldiers identified in the investigation by the military so far, face charges of aggravated assault. Other charges could include indecent acts, battery, dereliction of duty, conspiracy to maltreat prisoners, and nonphysical abuse, stemming from photos taken of naked Iraqi prisoners, according to a military spokesman in Baghdad.

Javal and Zeenethia Davis met at age 16 through church in New Jersey and came to college in Maryland. He attended Morgan State University while she went to the University of Maryland, Eastern Shore and graduated from Bowie State. They got married after graduation but didn't have much money, so both decided to join the Army Reserve.

Davis said she doesn't know what he's been doing in Iraq, nor has she gotten word that he's facing any charges. She said he never complained about lacking guidance from superior officers.

"He thinks they're trying to make examples out of people," she said. "I think the situation over there is very stressful. We're not over there. We really don't know how those prisoners are behaving."

She said she last spoke with her husband on Wednesday.

"He's not telling me what's going on. I think they're telling them not to tell us. I'm thinking he can't tell me because he can't do it over the phone."

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/pr...r30apr30,0,5731881.story?coll=bal-pe-asection

 

Ironic that you should use a quote from Spiro T. Agnew. Now there was a fine fellow.

 

Really? That's not what we were told.....











The End

 

Who supports these guys? Are these the guys who are exploding car bombs which are killing Iraqi civilian and US soldier alike? Are these the Fedayen trolling in from Syria or Iran? Are they the most strident Baathists who worked for Saddam against the best interests of the larger Iraqi population.

Let's not willingly trumpet EVERYTHING the propogandists want us to make out of these photos before details are available.