Once again I have to wonder if TJ isn't really a closet liberal Democrat, intentionally trying to discredit conservative Republicans.
Agreed. All of the people who participated need to be harshly disciplined and if any superior officers even knew about it, they should be dealt with as well. I would consider making their punishment public in order to try to reclaim some measure of good will with the Iraqi people, but the military keeps this stuff private so that probably won't happen.
Assuming for a moment Jorge's serious, i can see how one could be frustrated that the 'peacenik' side would run with this and exploit it to portray the military and the US in general in the worse way possible. However, in this incident the individuals were not only just plain wrong, the actions were repugnant. All American's should condemn them. Unconditionally. And if the 'libs' overplay it...well, these bozo's gave them that ammunition. Fight that battle elsewhere. But these actions are indefensible.
here's demagoguery.... i love america...no matter what it does...if it enslaves children and tortures them, i still love it. if it humiliates people, i still love it. if it turns into a rogue nation that can't be trusted, i still love it. because it's still called america. i love america, TJ. i love it big time. i love it enough to point out its faults and not pretend it's perfect. i love my child even more than i love my country...and i let him know where he takes wrong turns...i hold him accountable, because i want him to be respectable...i want him to have integrity. if i didn't love america, tj...i wouldn't care enough to call it out on this.
First of all, I hope you are right. I'm willing to see this out because I don't beleive we should "cut and run." You gotta finish what you started. I truely beleive that. My heart is with all our soldiers that put their lives at risk. Also, I am proud to live in America. I'm sad that the rest of the world does not view us favoribly. Now chain saw please: Because daily evidence suggests were are quickly spiraling out of control over there. ... AND most importantly, we don't have an exit strategy. (btw, that June 30 exist is not an exist strategy at this point) Dude, do you watch the news? Is ain't a failure yet...but it sure is a mess. I'd feel pretty oppressed if somebody took nude photos of me posing in sexual positions with another man. I'd also feel pretty oppressed if I could never go outside because I feared I'd get shot by a stray bullet. History is our guide. Isreal vs. Palestine may come true here. That is what I call LONG-TERM INSTABILITY. Also Afganastan has been in a state of instability for decades in part due to America's actions. So why should middle easterners beleive what we say. They've seen what we can do first hand...and they don't like it. It is extremely uncertain what the future holds for this country. There is no guarentee that we'll fix a thing in their society. We are also offering then a CHANCE at a worse life. It may be that Sadam would be the lesser of two evils. I see no evidence so far that our actions are successful at putting in the infrastructure to make this a true democracy. Many of these people don't want a democracy. They want in Islamic state. If this is true, we should have known this and not attempted a regime change. It might be back to what is was before and maybe worse. That is the reality of HOPE that they face. History will judge it a failure if we re-energized new terrorists by our actions. Time will tell. Those wars were faught with MASSIVE amounts of world wide support. It wasn't just the U.S. (and a little bit of UK). In this case, much of the world openly questioned the war and our support is continually declining. Talks show hosts wave this as a richeous flag that "we are doing what is right" so basically screw the rest of the world. Even IF it is right, we can't do it alone. The next time there is a world conflict, we may need help of allies. But there won't be any allies tomorrow if we alienate the world today. Your tactics only serve to drive a wedge between liberals and conservatives. I find that unAmerican. So we'll see about that loss of power come election time.
BAM!!! Great post, Max. It is principled conservatives like you that will lead the GOP from the depths to which it has sunk.
If only Clutch could make on of those charts he did for Omega for T_J, the latest point would be dipping under the -10 mark and would read "Max hands T_J his ass"
What depths would these be? The depth of controlling the executive office, the Senate and the House? The depth of having strong representation in state legislatures and governorships? The depth of being able to appoint many conservative judges to serve in the judicial branch? Max, I am glad that you at least altered your position to say some positive things about America, after you announced you were ashamed of it. When will the liberals start saying positive things? No one knows.
Thats a good point. Because TJ's messages makes me think things through more to rebut his extreme right messages. In so doing, I learn more about myself and build a stronger resolve of why am a libreal. I'm actually proud of being a liberal now...thanks to TJ. I love you man. TJ is interesting. He's very idealistic. In a perfect world, his positions are worthy. But they never account for fundamental differences or even flaws in humanity as a whole...and therefore he always wrong. Its uncanny, really. It's almost like a child's view of the world...where everybody should own a puppy. Too bad not everybody likes dogs.
For now. The pendulum never stops. I'll go. I love America. I am proud of America. I liked that anology of a mother/child. My kid might be ugly but I better not hear you say that. I might be a little ashamed when he comes in last at the track meet. But that doesn't matter. My love will never fade. It's unbreakable. If I thought my kid was in danger, I'd do anything to help. I even punish my kid if he did something wrong. In fact, as a parent its my duty to punish him or he might repeat poor behavior. Tough Love. Because I know he'll be stronger for it. I also have to let my kid learn lessons the hard way. Again, he'll be stronger for it. America is the best county on earth. That is why people constantly try to immigrate here. But America isn't perfect...and I'm okay with that...as long as we fix try to better ourselves. We can only better ourselves if we understand our faults.
what is interesting is that Trader_Janus hasn't said that he thinks these acts by OUR soilders are wrong...
The liberals would like nothing more than to see our troops embarrassed, support for the War on Terror eroded, and America to be given a bad name. Why you ask? Simple. Because they want John Forbes Kerry in the White House. What is it with this guy? He sees all of political life and perhaps all life through the prism of the 2004 election. Nothing else counts. Regarding the pictures, were they partially shown on 60 Minutes II? I think I saw a different set of pictures that were just as shocking. The pictures I saw originally had 60 Minute II embossed on them. They primarily showed US troops including women troop sexually abusing male Iraqi prisoners at a prison.
I'm always bewildered why sex raises peoples ire when violence is more or less accepted. Is sexual humiliation of any import in a conflict where hundreds of people are being maimed, burnt and killed every day? Are soldiers expected to maintain comportment while they face assasins, and suicide bombers? In every war combatants dehumanize their enemies. They have to to overcome their own inhibitions. How else coulod a soldier who has been raised on"thou shalt not kill" pull the trigger. Warfare is outside the bounds of normal human decency. What this event ,whether real or not is, is an example of propagana being used to influence public opinion. Another example of how to fight a guerilla war. Besides the Islamic radicals are receiving no worse than they hand out. Remember these ****ers are the same ones that will stone their own daughters to death for being victims of rape. ( see how propaganda works)
Of course you arguing against Islamic radicals. The Baathists are not Islamic radicals nor was Saddam. There are no doubt some Islamic radicals fighting the U.S. occupation, but many there are not. They have not lived under radical islamic law in Iraq for decades. The fact of the matter is that most of our troops can do perform their duty bravely and honorably. These men, however, did not. They engaged cruel barbarity, and should be punished for it. We shouldn't think that this means all U.S. soldiers are bad, because of this, but we should make no bones about criticizing this behavior, punishing everyone involved, and trying to make sure it doesn't happen again. To say it's ok to humiliate, torture, and degrade people in this way because of stoning daughters etc. doesn't make sense.
These Baathist bastards are the same people that poisoned thousands of Kurds and tortured their own people.
I'm always bewildered why sex raises peoples ire when violence is more or less accepted. Is sexual humiliation of any import in a conflict where hundreds of people are being maimed, burnt and killed every day? Are soldiers expected to maintain comportment while they face assasins, and suicide bombers? I sort of agree with Gene here. This happens in all wars if they go on long enough. THIS IS WHY YOU DON'T START UNNECESSARY ELECTIVE WARS. Maybe even TJ will start to understand that there are issues here such as the Just War Theory, the atrocities in Vietnam etc. that goes beyond whether he supports the GOP or President Bush.
Here is something that hasn't gotten much mention: Does anyone else agree with Krosfyah in thinking that we "lost" this war? How ridiculous
