How many of them really have killer low-post games, though? For example, Dirk, Odom, Webber, Bosh and Murphy are all tall, but none of them are really guys who punish the opposition in the low post. In fact, putting them in the post might well get them out of their natural strength.
To be more specific, the questions I am seeking answers are: 1) Can Battier effectively guarding these guys regardless of their playing style? (Obviously if they are more on the perimeter, that will play into Battier's strenght more) 2) Will Battier be effective fighting these guys for the Rebounds? If the answers are positive, then he will have what takes to play PF for Rox, since offensively, he will do what he is doing very effectively now -- spacing and take what defense gives him without running specific plays for him.
A bunch of these guys play outside in so yes Battier could guard them. Some like Dirk can be guarded by TMac since he has excelled at guarding him in the past. Some like Tim Duncan would be guarded by Yao.
if we have yao guarding TD, we're in trouble big time. i just don't get it how so many people think that we're not in trouble when it comes to low post defense, rebounding, and shot blocking. WE ARE IN TROUBLE
I will play along and answer your question, but first, let me say you ask the wrong question. The question you should be asking is can he do it better than anyone else on the Roster and the answer is a definitive YES! Now to answer your question. He will definitely have problems down low with players like Duncan and Brand and he will have problems in general wih hybrid players like KG and Dirk. With those players he will need help. We will have to throw doubles and different looks at these all stars. But I ask you what PF in this league will not have trouble. And what team will not have to help out on these players. Battier is a solid Defensive player who knows how to stay in front of his man and disrupt him. He always records alot of steals and is 13th in block shots. Also I showed in another post when he played most of his minutes at the PF spot for Menphis last year he average 10+ rebounds. He may not be the idea choice but he will be a significant improvement over anyone else we have to play PF. He is a great competitior who in his own words knows how to make plays.
I have no arguement with your point that he is better than any other PF options Rox currently have. That question sure is valid. But the other side of the coin is this: will Snyder more qualified to start at SG than JHo at PF? Since the really arguement is to start JHo or Snyder. Like I said above, this is something Snyder has to earn as the season progresses. Furthermore, I hope you will agree with me on this one -- Battier is not an elite PF in the league either. Then why did Rox made the trade to get Battier? The answer obviously is not to strengthen PF, instead improving perimeter defense is the main goal. Then following your logic, TMac is the best SG on the team, and Battier is the best perimeter defender on the team, therefore -- Tmac at SG and Battier at SF is the answer
The simple answer to the question is this: Battier will guard all those guys 10 times better than Juwan can. So, there's no question really. We don't have another 6'10"-7' post defender to throw on Duncan. We've got a slow 6'9" 235 lb Juwan Howard who is flat footed and anything but quick defensively. Or we've got a 6'8"-6'9" 235 lb Shane Battier who has strength, speed, and quickness over Juwan Howard. It's no contest. Battier is better in every defensive aspect of the game than Juwan Howard. Howard ain't no 7 footer. At the most, he's got ONE INCH of height on Battier. He can no more guard Duncan, Garnett, or Dirk, than than a wet blanket thrown over a fire hydrant could. Battier will give all those guys a harder time defensively. As for Timmy.....San Antonio has 2 choices. Offensively, they can play Timmy in there with Elson/Butler. That gives them 2 inside players. Defensively, they are in trouble if Battier and McGrady are in there at the forward slots because one of them has to go out and defend at the 3 point line while the other one is stuck on Yao one on one. Timmy can't handle Yao defensively any better than Yao can handle Timmy. In fact, I really think a one on one matchup of Yao vs. Tim favors Yao because of the difference in height. So, for the most part, when Duncan is paired up with Yao offensively, he's going to take Yao out to the left knuckle and face up with that bank shot or the up fake and the little drive action. So, what do you do? You bring help on Duncan. It's no big deal. He deserves a double. Who do you want to double with and be able to rotate best, Juwan or Shane? Once again, it's no contest. Or you put Shane on Duncan and let him front Duncan if Duncan goes into the low block, the same way that Phoenix has Diaw and company front Yao. Then you've got Yao defending San Antonio's garbage man (Butler or Elson) who is essentially standing around looking for an opportunity to get to the rim for the put back or for the easy layup dunk when his man chases. Again, who is going to be more effective defending Duncan and playing fronting defense on him, Shane or Juwan? Again, the answer should be obvious, shouldn't it? Nowitzki's open floor game and perimeter game?? Shane or Juwan??? No contest. Nowitzki decides to play back to the basket from the FT line. Shane or Juwan? No contest once again. Garnett? Running around all over the floor?? Juwan or Shane??? Marion or Amare??? Juwan or Shane?? It should be obvoius that Shane is going to be the better defender against either one of those guys than Juwan. Don't even go into what the difference offensively would be. It's blatently obvious. The closest thing we have in the West to a post up inside power forward outside of Tim Duncan is ...........who???? Yep, Elton Brand. 6'8" athletic, strong Elton Brand. Do you want Shane or Juwan on him?? Juwan sure ain't stopping him. Nowitzki-primarily face up perimeter player who posts up from time to time but likes to receive the ball at the 3 point line and have the option to dribble drive or shoot the trey. Gasol-skinny 7 footer who plays probably 60% face up game from the top and 40% of the time he attempts to post up in the mid high post. Will play most of his minutes at the 5 since they have no real centers and when he plays against Yao, he does not have the strength to post up in the low block. David West-face up player primarily who gets most of his offense off the midrange jumper, not much post ability at all. KMart-garbage man who is best in transition, not a very good shooter. If he posts up with Camby playing the high post, it would be best to switch Yao off on him and let Battier or Howard guard Camby from the top. However he does not post up much. When he does, or when he handles the ball and is getting a lot of shots, it usually means that Melo is lacking shots and the other team is winning. Nene-a possible low post threat. Once again, if he is posting up low with Camby playing his traditional face up game (like Juwan) from the top of the key, then Yao should be on him down low and Battier should be on Camby out high. Camby-a center who works from the perimeter and gets the majority of his shots and baskets from the 17 footer. Battier with Yao is the better combo working against him and whoever the PF is. Garnett-Great player who gets most of his offense off the jump shot. Not a true post up player although he will post up against smaller players. Fine, let him post up against Battier, and then shoot it over Battier and Yao. If he wants to operate from outside Battier is going to give him a more difficult time than Juwan. Portland-non factors. Randolph posts up....from 18 feet away. And Raef is a outside in player. Battier matches up with both of them better than Juwan. Seattle-Wilcox, hmmm, a tough matchup....when he is active. Most of his offense comes on the inside but not necessarily post up action. He gets most of his with putbacks, or driving to the bucket, or the lob dunk/layup. Once again, very athletic. Juwan or SHane??? I'll take SHane's speed and quickness over Juwan. Kirilenko and Boozer-Kirilenko requires a speedy, quicker defender over a slow, non athletic defender. McGrady would probably actually be the best matchup on Kirilenko with Shane taking Harpring. Boozer is more of a plodder/muscle man on the interior. I could see him causing Shane problems. But once again with Okur playing way outside looking for the bombs, it just makes sense to me to switch off Yao on Boozer and let Shane tackle the perimeter. Shane could handle those matchups with the bigger players who come from the perimeter a lot better than a flat footed Juwan. Juwan doesn't stand a chance, that's why they don't even try him out there. They let Yao go ahead and defend those guys spotted up from 20 feet away instead of taking the interior. Troy Murphy, Shareef, Lamar Odom.......they are all outside in power forwards. Shane is going to be the better choice, period. And the other side of the equation is, we want teams to match up with us with the bigger, slower, interior powerforwards. Because there is no way they can match up with us offensively. With Shane playing the 4, we will dictate the vast majority of matchups and force the other team to adjust to us instead of us adjusting to them. As long as Shane shoots that 3 ball at 40% and his overall eFg is 60%, we are going to dictate matchups with those shooting numbers. It's a no brainer. Battier should be the starting PF.
Assuming we are not going to get a PF significantly better than Howard, the question seems to boil down to whether starting Snyder is better than starting Howard. This question cannot be answered until we actually see what Snyder can do. I am not a Howard fan and I know his game is declining fast. But a lot of you guys hate him to the point where ANYONE is better than him. I wouldn't go that far. You can't just say since Battier is our best option at PF, he should be our starting PF. In reality, our best option at PF is McGrady, not Battier. I don't see anyone here suggest that we should start T-Mac at 4. In fact, we should start T-Mac at every position other than center, according to this logic. If you shift the question and ask, "Which position does Battier do best?" The answer is obviously SF. But so does McGrady. And we want to start both of them. So you either move Battier to PF or move McGrady to SG. Which move is more advantagous? Does Battier's contribution drop off more playing PF or does McGrady's drop off more playing SG? I'd say the former. However, there is another factor to consider. Moving Battier to 4 means Snyder would start at 2. Moving McGrady to 2 means Howard would start at 4. That brings us back to the first question. We don't know how good Snyder is as the starting SG. But do we have to start Howard? Many here argue that Hayes is better than Howard. Maybe that is true. If I were JVG, (again, assuming no more roster changes) I would definitely experiment with different lineups at the beginning to see what goes best. Howard, Snyder, Hayes, even Head can be that 5th starter. And don't forget the possibilities coming from Spanoulis and the returning Sura.
It feels so good to have someone finally agrees with me. BTW, this is my first post as "contributing member" instead of "rookie". Feel good about this too.
i agree with much of what you've written. in regards to on the ball defense, then yes battier is by far the superior defender. howards is alittle slow, so when it comes to the floating offensive PFs, then SB can be a success on the perimeter. but still. SB can guard outside, but you cannot seriously tell me that he's going to stop even 1/4th of these guys when they're close to the basket. it's the post defense, the shot-blocking, the interior rebounding that is a serious concern... these cannot be manned well enough by SB. will shane do better than JHO? sure, but not that much better. i am saying either way we have a glaring weakness. my argument is that we need to make a trade happen to get a longer, defensive PF. Wilcox would be great. otherwise i see us getting torched inside. Nowitzki Garnett Marion Amare Tim Duncan Elton Brand Gasol David West KMart Nene Camby Garnett Randolph Wilcox Kirilenko Boozer Troy Murphy Shareef Lamar Odom maybe reef, kmart, and david west would be non-factors... the rest i think would kill us.
A good post txppratt. Unfortunately it seems highly unlikely that we can get a quality PF who could complement Yao and T-Mac. Nobody apart from them has any real trade value.
I just can't see Battier playing full time PF minutes. You want to shorten a players career? Just send him up against players 20+ pounds heavier every night. By the way, that 20+ pounds is, in all likelyhood, muscle. Here's some under the radar backup C/PF's to think about: Pat Burke (Phoenix): Phoenix is in LT territory. Would they consider trading him? Zarko Cabarkapa (Golden State): Not outstanding, but he's young & has good size. Kelvin Cato (UFA): No range, but very strong down low. Brian Cook (LAL): He's been mentioned many times on this board. The Lakers are way over the LT threshold & might consider moving him in a package (Mihm for the TE?). Dale Davis (Detroit): Old as dirt, but still very effective, prior to last year. Danny Fortson (Seattle): In spite of his baggage & injury concerns, he can still be very effective, rebounding & scoring, down low. He's also, going into the last year of his contract. Jeff Foster (Indiana): Would Indiana part with him? Steven Hunter (Philadelphia): I'm not real excited about him, but you never know. Emeka Okafor (Charlotte): He he, just kidding. Scot Pollard (Indiana): ??? Clifford Robinson (New Jersey): Older than dirt, but still very effective & durable. Malik Rose (New York): A little undersized, but the Spurs didn't seem to mind during their Championship runs. Lorenzen Wright (UFA): Old, but very effective coming off the bench.
so i was reading this article http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sports/2003162350_soni30.html?syndication=rss and at the bottom it says Wilcox is working out in Houston today. my question is how the hell can we afford him?? plus is it just me or is seattle dreaming when they say they want an all-star caliber forward in return??
You forget we have Yao helping out and not one of those guys you listed can consistently get through Battier and Yao. Also your whole post goes out the window when you say let's trade for a better pF. Let's trade what? Every poster that suggest let's get this player or that player to play PF, rarely offers anything even close to what another team would accept. In spite of what people think most GM's are not stupid. Sometimes they will make what seems like one sided trades because it's trade or get nothing in return (Tmac for Francis and company) or they have irreconciliable differences (Spurs trade Dennis Rodman to the Bulls) but even then they still want some value back. In other words you are not getthing Wilcox for howard and some group of players to match salaries. And as desperate as Denver wants to trade KMart I can assure you they would not take anything we put on the table for him outside Yao Tmac and maybe Battier. So If you agree that Yao and Tmac are untradeable than we have nothing to offer of value that would get us a PF. We would have to trade Battier and something to get a decent PF and as look down the list of PF I can't see one that a team would be willing to give up for Battier that would be better than Battier. So without something of value to trade we will not get a PF better than Battier.
Seattle knows it can't get an all-star forward in exchange for him but if they going to sign and trade him they want quality back in return. It also says Wilcox is going back to Seattle,it seems they are close to a deal. Wilcox is a role player who might end up being better than Stro. He could be useful to the Rockets provided if he could fit in with Yao and T-Mac but we have no one that the Sonics would be interested in.
I'm pretty sure they mean that Wilcox is in Houston working out, and has nothing to do with the Rockets. There's a lot of NBA players that make their offseason homes in Houston or trains here with other NBA guys.
lots of people get through... and that's why yao gets dunked on more than anyone in the league. i'm not saying yao isn't awesome, i'm just saying he slow and his defense is more presence than anything else. battier is not a one-man lockdown defender... you are really setting yourself up for a disappointment. he's good, but he's not going to stop every PF in the league every night. the rockets better find help at the four or they're in trouble. let's sign cato at least. he'll give us what we're lacking. lots of trades are possible, three or four team deals are complicated but can get us what we need. you're right, i don't know all the available trades out there, but i know cd can do something. and we still have the trade exception (s?). my guess is that the trade exception will get used at the trade deadline??
Exactly, please hear Saleem. We have nothing they want. I like to dream as much as the next guy but it's insane to think dreams are reality.
