Once again, I have to say that the team would give up too much by playing Battier as the main PF: Pros 1. T-Mac doesn't was as much energy chasing around SGs (supposedly) Cons 1. What's even the difference between SGs and SFs in most cases? And with cross matching, T-Mac wouldn't even have to guard SGs that he can't handle. 2. Squander Battier's elite perimeter defense. 3. Possibly squander the "little things" that Battier does all the time (that tremendous +/- he has) by forcing him to stay in the paint. 4. Poor rebounding at PF. 5. Weak man defense at PF (although admittedly probably not much worse than with Juwan). 6. Chuck Hayes doesn't get to play as much. Per minute stats showed him to be a very good overall player, and one of the best rebounders in the league. Is the assumption that T-Mac would save energy by avoiding SGs worth all of these sacrifices?
this whole thread proves that Shane Battier is a "tweener". That houston would've been better off trading for a legit starting SG than him. That in an indeal situation Battier would be Tracy's backup.
I think it is pretty apparent we felt our defense is better with Battier at the 4 than with Swift at the 4, and Swift is more athletic version than Cato or Wright. With Yao and Cato/Wright our lateral quickness would be terrible. Lack of lateral quickness has killed us against the more athletic teams (Dallas, Phx). Dallas, Phx and SA are the major threats to us in the West. Phx is small, and will play a Battier size guy at the 4 (Diaw or Marion). Dallas's best team is small. SA's best team has Duncan at center, unless one of their two 3rd string centers they just signed blossum into starting quality (well less than 50%). These were also the teams we struggled against. So yes I am concerned with what lineups best allow the Rockets to use their advantage against these teams (Yao and Tmac) while most protecting against the way these teams exploited us before. IMO no question Battier as the primary 4 helps our athleticsm and lateral quickness defects against these teams. More than Juwan at the 4, the other folks mentioned (Wright/Cato), even more than Swift--which is why we pulled the trade. As for Battier on a guy like Wade or Kobe--we figure that out later. Odom is trouble too, we might be better with Synder and Tmac sharing Kobe responsibilities and Battier largely taking out Odom. I'll take Battier on Odom better than other ideas mentioned. Or put Tmac on Odom, Battier on Kobe and Synder on the Lakers 3. Lots of options. As for Wade--everybody would take their turn but quickness is the biggest key, so Head or Synder or Tmac may prove to make him work more than the less quick Battier (remember Prince could do nothing against Wade as well). Basically everyone takes their turn in trying to make Wade work. But I like to be in a position for the Rockets to try to figure out how they can outscore Wade 4 times, that is for sure.
can you please let this Rudy Gay issue go? Its over and done with. All of you are making these speculations of grandoisity about a guy who has never played a minute in the NBA. If you want to talk trash about the Rockets, or about Battier, do it after this upcoming season IF Rudy Gay wins rookie of the year and the Rockets go 30 and 52. I'm sick and tired of listening to your broken record.
cons 3,4 and 5 are unknown. even 2 isn't completely valid as nowadays, more PFs are increasingly playing from the perimeter or at least outside the paint. actually, i don't think that Battier will lose all or even any of his intangibles by playing the 4. aren't his intangibles considered to be heart, intelligence and leadership? all things that Rockets were missing from the PF position last season. i think that this year, Battier is a much better defender at PF than the older Howard, and even at PF, Battier won't always have to commit to the PF especially alongside Yao. i can easily see him as a defensive rover at PF following the ball. in other words, it will be Battier rotating with TMac or Snyder and running out to the perimeter instead of Yao. Stromile was supposed to do that, but he could never play enough with Yao and when he did, he forgot what he was supposed to do i guess. as for rebounding, we'll just have to see. Chuck Hayes is a great rebounder but his PER is still far worse than Battier and he still hasn't shown anything including this summer league that he deserves big minutes at PF. overall, i don't see any major cons, but more pros with Battier at PF. at the least, it keeps Howard off the floor.
So is the sole pro. PFs still generally play more in the paint and post up more than SFs. And even the ones who go outside more aren't as quick as good at taking people off the dribble as SFs and SGs. It's a waste of Battier's defensive talents. I didn't watch him play in Memphis that much, but supposedly he does a lot of real things on the court leading to that huge +/-. Will he be able to do that stuck in the paint? Shane Battier PF counterpart stats (per 48 min)[http://www.82games.com/0506/05MEM9C.HTM FGA: 16.5 eFG%: 0.454 FTA: 5.9 % of FGA in paint: 34% rebounds (net): 11.1 (-2.5) assists: 2.5 turnovers: 3.0 points: 19.4 PER: 16.7 Juwan Howard PF counterpart stats (per 48 min) FGA: 15.6 eFG%: 0.484 FTA: 5.1 % of FGA in paint: 34% rebounds (net): 11.7 (-1.7) assists: 2.9 turnovers: 2.4 points: 18.5 PER: 16.4 Per 48 min, Battier committed 5.1 fouls at the PF position, while Howard committed 4.3. The percentage of opponents' FGAs that Battier blocked while on the floor was decent (even compared to big men) at 2.6%, while Howard's shot blocking was nonexistent. In addition Battier's on/off court defensive impact was a lot more, however over 63% of his minutes were at SF, not PF. So, Battier does a number of things better than Howard at PF, such as causing turnovers, cutting down assists, and making his opponent miss his shots. However, opponents also shot more at Battier (despite the fact that Memphis's pace was statistically even slower than Houston's). Battier also helped them get to the line by fouling more. Both players got owned on the boards, but Juwan wasn't beaten as badly. Going by PER allowed, both players did poorly, and Battier was even a little worse. There are a number of problems with using these stats to determine defensive ability, but I think they shed a little light on what these two guys are capable of. At the very least, we know Battier isn't nearly as good on defense against PFs than he is against SGs or SFs. Even when it's Yao's man who sets the pick? What's Battier supposed to do, leave his man WIDE open to run out and chase Yao's man? I thought Stromile was initially wanted because he could block shots (unlike Juwan), so the team would have someone to cover the paint when Yao went out to chase guards during the pick-and-roll (instead of having Yao chase the guard and then rush back to swat the roller, either being a step too slow or picking up the foul). That's far more reasonable than the strategy you're suggesting here. Nope. Hayes's PER was far higher than Battier's, both overall and at PF. As for rebounding, are you kidding me? Hayes blows him away. He showed he was good during the real season, against NBA talent.
i've stated in another thread my relative skepticism of stats from 82games.com especially when they simply extrapolate the stats of players with very limited minutes during a very limited number of games for 48 minutes per game. concerning Hayes, if his numbers and performance really increased commensurate with his minutes (i.e. he became a 6' 6" Ben Wallace), i could reasonably infer he would have already consistently been given Big Ben minutes. how Hayes or Battier performed in their limited minutes is not necessarily reflective of their performance throughout the game. we really won't know how Battier will fare as PF for the Rockets until we see it, won't we? anyway, i have no questions or concerns of Battier being the starting PF simply because he is IMO the very best one the Rockets have right now. there is no free agent starting PF to sign for even the full MLE let alone a fraction of it, or a stud PF that the Rockets can trade scrubs and second rounders for. in other words, there is no choice (obviously, i don't consider Juwanna choice). it's kind of similar to Van Gundy having no choice but to reluctantly play Head big minutes last year except i think that Battier is definitely a Van Gundy guy and will be his easy pick for the starting PF. Battier is not Stro; he actually goes to practice on time and works hard during practice. barring dreaded injuries, i guarantee that Howard's minutes will surely decrease this season, and Hayes will not start. the real key is how Snyder turns out as the starting SG. he initially appears to be a better defender, rebounder and ball-handler than the Rockets' other options for SG not named TMac. if this is indeed the case then the starting lineup is set.
[/QUOTE]Think of Dallas, they don't have any particularly great rebounders or enforcer types, but they have a team of long and athletic guys who as a group do well on the boards. I won't saw we are like Dallas yet, but putting Battier and Tmac in the forward spots really adds a lot of length and quickness.[/QUOTE] you don't think diop and dampier are good rebounders and good defensive post-presence? i think they are...
I don't have the evidence myself to respond to this. However, smarter people who have spent a lot more time thinking about basketball have studied players' performances given more minutes: Official Seattle Sonics site Chuck Hayes played just over 500 minutes, which is a commonly used cut-off point by stats people. From reading the APBRmetrics forum, supposedly player performance tends to go a bit up with increased minutes. The fact that JVG didn't give Hayes more minutes should not be used against Hayes. This is the same coach who thinks Juwan Howard is useful, and that Ryan Bowen deserved playing time at all.
With the number of shots Battier's opponents used to score 19.4 p/48min, this is a huge pro for using Battier at the 4. Conversely, Battier scores a lot of points versus the number of possessions he uses at the 4. Battier's big con is rebounding. Battier's big plus at the 4 is that his team generally scores more points while he's at PF than the opponent's team. If you look at the offensive and defensive PER's for McGrady over the last two years, you'll notice he's much better at the 3 than the 2. These stats suggest McGrady plays SF. On Hayes at the 4, I would definitely like to see more minutes here. I have heard a couple of times from JVG and/or CD stating Hayes had a conditioning problem last year. Hopefully, he can be a ball of energy for over 20 minutes a game this year. He should get more minutes at the 4 than Battier as I want either McGrady or Battier at the SF at all times. Battier and Hayes should be an efficient rotation at PF, but the Rockets still need a third person that can play center.
If Battier's starting at the 4 for us, we're in trouble. Yes, I see him spending significant amount of time at the 4 here and there, but he should be used more as a 3 and 2, to use his length and defensive ability against the best perimeter players.
He's not much of a rebounder. Therefore his minutes at the 4 will be limited. You guys complain to no end about J Howard, but he's a much better rebounder than Battier.
Well put. what is wrong with van gundy? can anybody explain to me why ryan bowen has been on the team this long and what he brings to the rockets.
All this argument on where Battier should play or can play proves how versatile he is..some people here are saying that he doesn't have a true position and that he isn't a good fit for us (that we should have found a SG instead of Battier)...I think its the complete opposite..If a player can play several positions, that is a HUGE advanatge..how is that negative? The more I see on Battier, the better I like this trade and I think he will surprise alot of people around the league...You can plug him in at so many spots, wherever needed. I admit, when it first happened I was unhappy, like the rest of you, but over the last few weeks I really have begun to believe this was a good move for the rockets....
The question is not can he play or will he help the Rockets. It is can he play the role of Power Forward in both offence and defence and will his game at the 4 be what we are hoping for, especially when it comes to helping Yao Ming to avoid getting into foul trouble. Unless the Rockets still have a move up their sleeve, I sure hope he can, because Howard is unable to fill the needed role.
First post In an ideal world the Rockets could grab the Gooden’s, Ely’s, or Wilcox’s, and I hope they can. However, we must prepare for the worse and presume this is what we have. I also am not a massive fan of having Battier play permanent and stationary time at the 4. I don’t see why the Rockets can't run a line up of... Alston McGrady Battier Howard Yao The key to this line up is simple; it is merely the offensive end of the game. That is, McGrady can be the 2 on offensive, but on defensive he may be guarding the 3. Use Battier as the tool to guard the tougher player and make Mcgrady's world easier. Essentially, the starting line up does not need to dictate both facets of the game. I feel that our starting line up will merely reflect the offensive side, while on the defensive end switches will be made.
I dont think that battier will be the starting PF. Thats not a knock on him that he can't, he will get the minutes there, possibly similar to his 30% in Memphis. But we need him more as a perimeter stopper. He is 6'8, Howard is 6'9, so there is not much of a difference. I guess we will see how the season plays out, he wont start PF but he will play it some, and he will play it well. He has what Swift was missing, heart, desire and intelligence.
Sorry for the doubling post, but I wanted to make another note. I am very very very against getting Cook. Mihm, maybe...but dont give up Head for Cook, dear god!
