I agree with both of you on what your saying here, it does boils down much to what we get out of our SG. But I think our plan is to start Bat and TM in the forward spots, it is only if we get sucky play from our SGs that Howard starts and TM starts at SG. So if JH starts it is more an indictment of Snyder, Head or Spans ability to start in the league at the SG spot than an endorsement that Howard is the right fit of a PF to start for the team. I think the Rockets made the trade because they think across most situations they think they are better with Battier at the PF than with Swift at the PF, or Howard at the PF. If they thought Battier could not play heavy minutes at the PF it wouldn't have made sense to pull the trade and pull Tmac out of his most effective position. Another way to think of it is who are the teams that absolutely kill the Rockets? Quicker explosive teams like the Mavs and Suns that spready the floor. Without question Battier at the 4 much improves our matchups if guys like Dirk, Josh Howard, Marion and Diaw are playing the 4 for their team. Note, just because I see Battier as the starting 4 doesn't mean I don't think Howard or Hayes are not important. The key is flexibility, we have a perimeter defending combo 4 in Battier, but also a well rounded but athletically challenged traditonal 4 in Howard for some match-ups, and perhaps the more physical and rebound machine Hayes as still another option. My own opinion is we have the best options at the 4 spot we have had in years, and this flexibility is great to have. Overall I am much more concerned about the level of consistency and productivity we can get out of our starting 1s and 2s than from any of our forward spots, including PF. It is guard play I am very worried about.
Yao is only presence? You must be kidding. If you are not there is no point in debating this with you but I suggest you watch alot of game film from the second half of last season, (in the games I watched even Duncan is intimidated by Yao) if you still think that Yao is not going to intimidate any PF that gets past Battier than we will never agree. In my mind and eyes Yao is the single most dominant defensive player in the league. One could argue that Shaq still holds that title and I could at least hear that but noone else. As for setting myself up for disappointment. I never thought Battier was a lockdown PF in this league and I know he has shortcomings, but he is better than you think and a far better choice than JHO or even Cato as you suggest. The guy is solid and if you compare his size to the leaned down Elton Brand he is not much smaller. He will never be as good but he is more than serviceable. I will also say I wouldn't mind adding Cato. He would be a good backup at center and some at PF. But please not as are starting PF. As for another PF go down the list of PF and then locate the ones that a team might even consider trading and then honestly try to decide what they would want from us to make the deal happen. What I think you will find is no PF available that is better than Battier.
Because he has the heart to challenge shots more than anyone. You want him to be dunked on less often? Tell him move out of the way and duck his head when someone is ready to slam the ball in. There are a lot of big men in the league who can show him how to do that.
toddie, does Cato have anything left at all? Plagued by injuries? The guy played 27 games last season, and didn't do squat, yet people keep bringing him up as a possibility. The irony is that all those years we complained about the guy, and he deserved it, we end up getting one of his two decent seasons, the other being 62 games his first year with Orlando, when he played decently. Is Kelvin toast? Inquiring minds want to know!
yao fills the lane, anchors the D, i get it... i know. you have to admit he just isn't quick enough to truly dominate on the weak side. that's all i'm saying. battier will get beat and yao is going to get hammered on quite a bit this year.
and i love the rockets as much as anyone, but i am going to have to be the one to tell you... your mind is on crack for one AK47 is far superior. and ben wallace? his best is probably behind him but... still. yao's going to have to get to the spots quicker to change/block more shots and stop committing silly fouls. when that happens, i will agree with you, but it's going to be tough for a man of his size
I tried to have a civil discussion with you but you had to be a childish a$$ and start the stupid little Your on Crack comments' Well let me tell you idiot I don't use drugs and if you think that Ben Wallace and Andrew Kirilenko could do a better job guarding Yao than Yao could do guarding them than you are the biggest ****ing idiot on this board. F@#king r****d!
AK47 guarding Yao? He will be seriously abused with long term mental trauma. But.. where is that coming from? I thought we were talking about Battier...
I agree AK cannot guard Yao one on one. But he is a perfect 2nd player to be used to double team and front Yao. I have always like his game, even before he started being recognized as a top-notched defensive player.
While I think Yao's defense has improved and I would say he's a good defensive palyer. I don't think he's dominate at the defensive end, at certainly not the "most" dominant defensive player in the league. He does contest a good number of shots, but for the most part most guys aren't afraid to take it to him. For the most part his defense does not change games the way guys like AK-47, Ben Wallace and Ron Artest affect games. I know awards don't always tell the story, but it's hard to imagine the most dominant defensive player in the league getting one vote for all-nba defensive team this past year. Battier is not a good rebounder. As much as people bash JHo, he's a much better rebounder than Battier. Battier was playing 35 minutes a game and getting 5 rebounds? And this on a team where Pau "Soft as Frozen Yogurt" Gasol is the best rebounder. I think Battier will play some time at the 4, but realistically I don't see him being the starter at the 4.
Let me rephrase that, the most dominant defensive player in the LOW POST. Most people would agree that Shaq in the past has been the most dominant low post defender and my point was only that the second half of last season Yao past him. I will accept that many feel that Yao has not passed him yet but please don't tell me Kirilenko is better. Let's match up kirilenko against Shaq and see how he fairs. Oh and for someone who wonders why this discussion was brought up, we were talking about low post players and Battier's ability to guard them and how Yao would be help defense and IMO with Yao backing up Battier low post defense we will be able to handle most of these stronger PF. I don't think Howard is a better rebounder. As I said in another post I went through most of Battier's games last year and found 9 games where Battier played the majority of his minutes at pf and he averaged 10+ rebounds per game in those 9 games. In fact when he played the majority of his minutes at PF he never had a game with less than 9 rebounds. I am not saying he will average more than 10 rebounds if he plays the PF full time. It is only 9 games and is not absolute sample but I believe it is safe to say he will do better than Howard. You have to also take into account in most of those games he still played significant minutes at sf.
Statistics say that Battier is horrible at rebounding when playing at PF. By the end of the 2006 season, Battier had played 26% of his team's PF minutes, which is over 1,023 minutes. This is no small sample size. According to 82games.com, during that time he was outrebounded by the opposing PF by 2.5 rebounds per 48 minutes. He's simply not a real PF.
The 82games.com numbers has to be taken in context. The stats say Battier gets out rebounded by opposing PFs by 2.5 reb per 48 minutes when he plays PF. It also says Battier gets outrebounded by opposing SFs by 0.8 rebounds per 48 minutes when he plays SF. However, when you look at what happens to the team's rebounding as a whole: http://www.82games.com/0506/05MEM9D.HTM The Grizz have a higher offensive rebounding %, a higher defensive rebounding %, and a higher overall rebounding % when Battier is on the court than when he is off. Given that Batter plays around 37% of his total minutes at PF and 63% at SF according to 82games.com. It would seem whatever he's doing when he isn't personally outrebounding his own man is probably not hurting the the overall team effort is rebouding whether he's at PF or SF.
I don't know where 82games is getting there stats or how accurate they are but I went through Battier's game by game stats and I was able to find 9 games where it looked like he played the majority of his minutes at pf and in those games he averaged plus 10 rebounds. The following is a link to one of those games, Battier's Stats versus Phoenix Feb 8 If you look at that game you will see that Lorenzo wright and Tsakalidas didn't play and Brian Cardinal only played 16 minutes. I think it is safe to say Battier played almost all if not all of his minutes at PF and had 10 rebounds. He also did that in 26 minutes. I found 9 games where it appeared Battier played most of his minutes at PF although some where only slightly more and again in those Battier averaged 10 plus rebounds. So I don't understand how 82 games comes up with their stats. Perhaps when Battier plays only small amounts of minutes at PF he doesn't adjust to the spot as quickly and thus his rebounding suffers but when he plays the majority of his minutes at PF clearly his rebounding improves.
Agreed. There are too many holes at the guard positions. If it is guard play that is worrisome, then shouldn't we put our best player there? I don't know how good a defender Snyder is. I know Alston, Head, and Spanoulis aren't ready to defend NBA guards effectively. Offensively, since our PG can't shoot, we need another perimeter guy apart from T-Mac who can hit a shot. Can Snyder do it? Can Spanoulis do it? How much can Sura help IF he comes back? Lots of questions. I am not saying that the answers are all "no." But until we see what these guards can do, we shouldn't assume that we should put our 3rd best player at the PF position.
I wasn't arguing the most dominant presence in the "low post", I was disagreeing with the idea that Yao is a dominant defensive player at this point. I do think he's a very good defensive player, but he's not dominant the same way Kirilenko, Ben Wallace and Artest are at this point. Of course AK can't guard Shaq, but that doesn't mean he's not a dominant defensive player. Again, Yao has yet to get more than one vote for the All-NBA defensive teams, he still has to improve a good deal to become a dominant defensive player. While PFs are usually in a better position to grab boards than SFs, Battier averaging under 5 boards a game makes me doubtful thath he's a better rebounder than Howard. If he was a great rebounding SF, I'd feel more comfortable with him playing the PF spot. And while 5 boards a game is not bad for the SF spot, it's not a number that makes me feel he's a better rebounder than Howard. I mean T-Mac gets close to 7 boards a game and I wouldn't want him playing big minutes at the PF spot. I do like what Battier brings to this team, but I think some of you guys have expectations that are way too high.
uh... the crack comment was a sarcastic one... nice post. you said he is the most dominant defensive player in the league... do you want everyone to interpret what you really mean? the argument isn't who can guard who, the argument is who is the better defender. yao can't guard a lot of smaller, quicker guards either... so using the argument that kirilenko can't guard yao is a silly one. your argument then becomes one of who is the better offensive player... so you're really going nowhere with that one. i think you should watch some more rockets game film. yao has trouble getting his body in position to defend without fouling. his arms come down many times and he draws silly fouls. he gets to spots late. just look at it objectively and you'll see what i'm talking about. his huge frame isn't exactly nimble. yao is a great center. he has improved so much! and i do think he will get better defensively in time. but right now, the best thing for the rockets is to have long, defensive, nasty four NEXT to YAO. he is not agile enough to truly dominate defensively. he needs some help down low. yao's inefficiencies on the defensive end aren't because he sucks, it's because a man of his size will never be a great leaper or quick to the lane. here's to hoping that the rockets play battier at the 3 and tmac at the two and that somehow we have another PF other than howard and hayes to play next to yao when the season starts.
