Thanks heypartner for the clarification. But now my question is what can you do with a 4.5m trade exception?
But now my question is what can you do with a 4.5m trade exception? If both teams are over the cap, the salaries of the players on both sides must be within 15% of each other. The traded player exception can be added to this 15% in order to let you acquire more salary than would normally be possible. For example, let's say that Houston wants to trade Walt Williams and that he makes $4M a year. The Rockets would have to trade him for a player or players with a salary between $3.4M and $4.6M. Now, let's say that team A is willing to trade player X, whose salary is $8M, straight up for the Williams. Normally, that deal won't work under the cap because the salaries aren't within 15% of each other. A $4.5M trade exception would allow you to receive up to $4.5M more in salary than would normally be possible. So, in this example it would make the deal doable. Does that make sense?
The Francis trade probably gave the rocs some exception, but Pippen was a base year player, right? Maybe the blazers used a trade exception(Smith trade, maybe) to pay for part of Pippen's salary. Indiana got 4.5 when they traded davis a base year player(?). This is pure speculation.
Joe Joe, Don't complicate the issue with BYC stuff, like I first did above. BYC considerations would only lower Pippen's salary that is treated in a trade to "75% of second year salary under new contract." which in effect, lowers our trade exception top amount. The main point to remember is no matter how you slice the deal, we can't trade down in salary more than 15%, because Portland couldn't trade up more than 15% since they were over the cap. 15% of Pippen's salary is the largest gap...and that is nowhere close to $4.5. What where Harrington, Dickerson, Price and Carr at salary-wise: you may have something there. But even here, we need to look at whether Vancouver was over the cap after the deal. If they were, the gap in salaries again could only be 15%. Cutting Pippen's salary by 75% for BYC purposes, and assuming Vancouver was over the cap after the trade, here's a quick calculation of our VERY TOP possible exception. (Note, I say very top, because we don't know the exact aggregate sum of Cato, et al, but we know Pippen's salary and Francis.) a) 15% of (75% of Pippen's salary) is top gap b) (115% of Francis would = Dickerson et al top amount) minus Francis is the top gap for a): 15% x (75% x $12.375m) = $1.39M for b) (115% x $2.517m) minus $2.517 = $377K Add the $100K amount/trade you get as well and that's: $1.96M in TOP salary gaps for the two trades. Now assume Vancouver wasn't over the cap, meaning we can trade down in salaries without the 15% restriction. Here's were it gets tough, anyone want to take a stab at adding up Dickerson, et al and doing the BYC consideration for Harrington? Dont' forget to add in MacClean and TMass. try it aelliot. [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited February 10, 2000).]
"I had a reporter tell me that Lakers GM Kupchack insisted to him that the $2 million exception could only be used every other year." I thought that was true? I thought since we used ours this year on Anderson, we don't have one for next year.
aelliot...I think the $4.5m might be available entirely from the Francis trade. Francis was not signed, yet. And Vancouver may have actually been under the cap. Feigan could have the trade exception part correct, just the wrong trade. what do you think?
aelliot...I think the $4.5m might be available entirely from the Francis trade. Francis was not signed, yet. And Vancouver may have actually been under the cap. I still can't figure out how we would have traded down $4.5M in salaries over the last year. Orlando was involved in the deal, so it's possible that they got around the 15% rule. Still, I can't imagine that we traded down much salary, if any, in the Francis trade. Didn't we give up: Othella ($2M), Dickerson ($1M), Price ($2.2M) and Carr($1M 10yr veteran minimum, but only $500K counts against the cap)? That's a total of $5.7M. We got Massenburg ($1M), Francis ($2.5M salary slot that counts against the cap) and MacLean ($2.5M). That's $6M, so if anything, we traded up in salary. Between the Pippen and Francis trades, I'm still not finding the $4.5M.
Ah,,,aelliot. Go back to your Indiana Davis deal. Then go to #59's last sentence: "Draft picks have zero trade value for salary matching purposes." The question not answered (and I'm finding out) is does a drafted, but unsigned player, count zero or rookie scale. Francis was not a signed player until 5 days after the trade. Still, it boils down to was the 15% rule in effect. I can't answer that, because I don't know were Vancouver was capwise after the trade. [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited February 10, 2000).]
Orlando was involved in the trade. They received a bunch of players from Vancouver to match the salaries of Othella, Carr, Dickerson, and Price. Since the rockets only got a draft pick from Orlando, and vancouver probably got as much salary as they jettisoned, the rockets get the exception. I think Dye and Rhodes and a couple of others. Wasn't it a 12 player trade?
I think the fact that Orlando was involved in the trade indicates that we had to meet the 15% rule. Otherwise, why include them? Remember how the deal was shot down by the league and then Orlando came to the rescue. Either Houston was trading up in salary or Vancouver was over the cap.
Orlando doesn't really need to be brought into the picture, because we are just trying to see if the Rockets traded away more salary than they received. You do make a good point: Vancouver's 15% restriction is for the whole deal, if Orlando absorbed more than us, it wouldn't matter how much we traded down. So, I'm convinced now. Add up what we traded and subtract what we got. For the sake of seeing if we can get to $4.5 in the two trades, ignore Francis's salary (since he was unsigned--I'll find out whether that counted in the trade), and ignore the 15% rule, assume that was absorbed by Orlando. Make sure you calculate the Base-Year Compensation salary. I'm sure Othella was BYC. Here's how that works: 1. for trading purposes use only 50% of any bird player who is in the 1st year of their new contract. (Same goes for rookie scale extensions.) Compare that to their previous year's salary. Whichever number is greater, that is the salary used in trades. 2. same scenario, but for 2nd year of their new contract. Pick the higher of 75% of 2nd contract year salary or 120% of the value you calculated in #1. 3. after the 2nd yr of their new contract, treat them like everyone else (ie, their trade value is same as their salary). Players that are not bird signings or rookie scale extensions are not BYC; you just use their current salary in trades. I expect reports on my desk in the morning. hehe [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited February 10, 2000).] [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited February 10, 2000).]
I've got confirmation: Draft picks *and* unsigned rookies do not count towards trades. So, Francis salary did not count, creating roughly a $2.5m gap, and that to Pippen's possible $2m we calculated and we get $4.5M. So, Feigan was right about the numbers, but mistaken about the free agent part and that the Francis trade was the lions share.
No, I don't think thats quite it heypartner. Even though Draftee's dont count as a figure in a trade, the other players still have to come within 85 percent. If you take out Francis 2.5 million, the rox don't meet the 85 percent requirement, and the tade doesn't happen. So the difference has to be in Don Macleans contract. I thought he made more like 3.5 million this year. His 3.5 and TMass roughly 1 million = 4.5 The traded Rox players roughly = 5.7 5.7 X .85 = 4.85 million. It might be safe to assume that we are off by 350 thousand in players salaries. As I stated to you long ago, it is way too difficult to understand players exact salaries for a year. So Feigan may not be right after all.
I wonder why there's no word by the Rockets on this subject. Everyone had made such a big deal about the exception that the Pacers had w/ A. Davis' 4.5 million dollar exception.
dreamshake, what you are missing is the 3 way trade. Orlando absorbed the difference, not us. aelliot...why are you so silent. Give us your opinion. I really cannot believe Feigan would report incorrect numbers.
dreamshake and aelliot let me reinforce one thing for you calculations... first...LC came straight out and told me, ...yep, forget Francis's salary and forget the salary matching with Vancouver since Orlando was involved. He said, just add up who we traded and subtract who we received. The gap is our exception...that's it. Plus 15% of Pippen's salary (after BYC, plus the 100K token) is still $1.5 at least. Feigan may be off by a few 100 grand...but not many. We may as well accept the fact he heard the number from an insider and reported it. Unfortunately, he reported some incorrect stuff at the same time. [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited February 11, 2000).]
Im still under the impression that with a 3rd team, salaries have to be withing 15 percent of traded players between teams. That there is no absorbing to occur with a third team. So TMass + Maclean + Draft Pick still have to come within 15 percent of Harrington + Carr + Price + Dickerson.
Ok Im assuming you realize that both the Rox and the Grizzlies were over the salary cap to begin with so the 15% rule is in affect regardless.
