David, I agree with you. The "defender/enforcer" is an important role. Again, that goes back to the ROLE PLAYER issue that MacBeth first brought up and I agree with that point. Our role players have to get better. Posey certainly by name fits the role you are talking about. I think he can be that guy but only at the "right price." One more important thing I forgot to mention after thinking about this post last night. In MacBeth's initial post it is pointed out I think perhaps in MacBeth's post it is not a "3rd star" that MacBeth is having a problem with but a "3rd scorer". Take a look at MacBeth's list. Lamar Odom, Ron Artest, Kenyon Martin. I would argue that Ron Artest and Kenyon Martin are on the precipus of stardum now! They are stars. They were almost all stars this year. Lamar Odom has talent and potential to be one. But the difference in these "stars" is they bring to the table STAR qualities that are not in the form of "scoring" which goes back to what MacBeth want's in terms of Francis and Yao taking the lead in scoring. I agree with this. I really think Elton Brand fits the peftect mold of the type of player that would work well on this team. Whether we can actually get him is another story. Chances are slim I know, but with the Clippers you never know. But what I do know about Elton Brand is he fits in perfectly with the TYPE of player that MacBeth wants to have (Odom, Artest, Martin etc). I really don't think Brand "wants/needs" the ball anymore than those 3 guys so he can succeed on the court. What MacBeth wants is indeed a "3rd star player" but one that does all the dirty work, rebounding, passing, defense. I agree with that as well. But at the same time I think a 3rd star should also have a nice offensive game. leebigez, mentioned "lulls" in the Rockets offense and having a 3rd star would deminish this. I agree. Having a 3rd star player for other teams to have to defend is important. Plus it allows one of our star players to rest and then still have 2 star players on the court at all times. Think about that. Again, it is not about packing as much talent onto a team and letting them loose like Portland did. It is about identifying 3 really great players and then mix and match them with the appropriate roles players that augment THEIR games. I will say it again, unless Francis or Yao being a TOP dominant player in this league this team is going to need one more star type player. Mobley is too inconsistant to be that player. Eddie has a chance but is it a chance we are willing to wait on? Tough to say at this point. This is why I favor trading some of our decent role players to nab one more star player for this team if a star player is available out there that fits this team.
Good post, Duece. It's not overall talent, but complementary skills. No Karla, Yes Brand. No Taylor, Yes Davis. No Cuttino, yes Williams. No Rice, Yes Odom. Whoever it is, they have to fit in with Yao and Steve. Board, Clear out, swing the ball, hit the open jumper, move without the ball, pass, set picks, play defense. Set up the stars, give them an out from the double. Protect them from foul trouble, lay the wood on the enemy.
I will be patient but as of now I am not convinced that Steve Francis and Yao Ming are complementary. Over all I agree with your theme MacBeth, that chemistry is the most important ingredient of a Championship Team. A team of players who know their roles and what the coach requires of them is a lot more preferable to the melee that existed last season. However I do have contention over two points. 1) Yao Ming is nowhere ready to be the force you consider him to be. His NBA game has a long way to go and if the Rockets dont get him some specialised Big Man coaching he might never learn offencive and defencive positioning required by a dominent NBA Center. 2) Elton Brand is not the type of player to demand the ball. He is a team player and is one to take his turn to get his points. He would support Yao Ming and cover his many failures in his defencive game.Last season Brands statistics per game were:- Pt/Gm 18.5,Reb/Gm 11.3, As/Gm2.5, FG%50.2, Bl/Gm.2.55, Stl/Gm 1.15.
3 stars on a team may work. However, only 1 team has won a championship with 3 ALLSTARS. That was the Lakers of Wilt, Baylor and West. That came about because when Wilt came to the Lakers he basically said he would rebound and let West & Baylor take the shots. Wilt took just enough shots to keep the defence honest. Also those 3 represented a guard, forward and center which kept the floor spread. Zone defence will decrease the effectiveness of a team doing that today. However, I think with Brand or Martin, we could have the same type team & within 3 years have a championship. We would need to get a pg, move Steve to the 2, bring Cat off the bench or trade him and get a backup 1 or 2 depending on Cat's situation.
I fully agree with this take. This really has been what folks that want changes on this roster have been saying since mid December. Really simple as Dakota likes to say "too many cooks spoil the broth". Build the offense around Steve and Yao which means move Cuttino in some package for a playmaker. Ofcourse, Im shocked there havent been lame response in this thread like the usual ones ie "Steve cant get more than 16 shots a game b/c he doesnt have enough offensive moves" or "Steve is not quick enough to gain separation even against slower 2s" or "Steve is not tall enough to get his shots against bigger 2s even though Mobley is at most an inch taller and has about half the talent of Steve." Even the new mantra hasnt popped up "Lets not trade Mobley for best avail, put him on the bench instead and kill this trade value! That way Mobley can be here forever while the Rockets get stuck in mediocrity! woohoo!" Im disappointed in the Mobley supporters, I wouldve expected a slew of these types of responses by now. Btw, MacBeth, you are absolutely correct in this, Steve and Yao need to shoot more; they should be combining for 40-45 shots between them which means they are taking half the shots on this team. This is why Ive been wanting a playmaker on offense in place of Mobley since mid December. There are many possibilities that make sense whether its Lamar Odom, Andre Miller, Jamaal Tinsley, etc.
Yetti, I think your underestimate Yao's potential. Honestly, I did not expect what I saw this yr to happen till atleast his third season. I secretly hoped it could b/c that lengthy clip of highlights that Clutch posted were very impressive but really didnt expect it till his third season. What Yao showed me this season was an absolute eye opener. In addition, Rudy only started to scratch the surface of what Yao is capable of doing. Two reasons, his teammates (aside from Posey) dont have a clue how to work away from the ball, and Rudy wanted Yao to get adjusted to the inside game before doing extensive high post. That being said, I would be shocked if Yao isnt close to a 20-10 player next season and by his third season a 25-12 type force. Ofcourse, in order to reach this level, he will need teammates that can get him the ball in the right places and do more than just stand around. He will need teammates that dont need to take isolation jacks like Mobley to get involved in the offense. If Yao is not one of the top 5 players in the league at some stage in the next 4 yrs, something will have gone seriously wrong. Yao is so much more offensively gifted than even Tim Ducan its not even funny. I laugh everytime I watch Duncan shoot one of those flat foul shots at the end of playoff games b/c I know Yao is going to be so much more consistent in every facet of the offensive game. You want a fearless prediction, how about this, Yao will be a better player than Tim Duncan within the next 3 years.
Brent Barry and Alvin Williams would be great pick-ups through trade or FA. Barry is a utility player who brings everything to the table. Shooting (not scoring if you catch my drift,) rebounding, hustle, and defense (he causes a lot of players technicals.) Williams is the perfect fit if we want to move Steve to the 2. He is a big guard who likes to play defense, and he knows how to handle the ball. We can trade Mobley for Williams and maybe Davis? Of course it would have to be something like Mobley and Rice or Taylor. Williams / Steve / Barry Steve / Barry / Posey / Williams Posey / Tmo / Boki Davis or Griffin / Griffin or Mo Tay Yao / Cato I hate to say it, but trading Cato now would be a huge plus for us. He is at his peak, but he will never be more to us than just a back-up for Yao. We could easily trade him to any East team since there aren't any "great" centers in the East.
See, I know Francis can take more shots even against bigger players, but how high of quality shots are they going to be? Are they going to be the high vlolume poor shots like A.I. or Walker? Or are they going to be the high quality high % like Kobe? Chances are with him always shooting over taller players, high shots are going to be low % and this really makes it tough. I do agree Ming can be a 20-10, but I don't think he is selfish enough to hoist up 18-19 shots per game. Ming will on a nightly basis get 5-8 shots made from the ft line, so if he goes 7-14 from the feild, he'll get his 20 pts a night. Someone said that that the 3 stars don't work which i disagree with. The Celtswon with 3 all stars as well as the Lakers. Even if you look at the 1st Bulls run, Horace Grant avg 17ppg and made the all stars one yr. The old sonics of Chambers,X-Man,and Ellis was very effective and potent and Dallas od this yr had the best record in the league. As good as Shaq and Kobe is, think how they would be if they had that 3rd scorer.I think it would work especially if that 3rd scorer is someone like Brand or SAR. The key is the guy has to be effecient and ego less like those 2. Like i said, those 2 can get you 20pts on those same 14 shots that Mobley takes and it makes a huge difference. It will be some nights when one or the other is off in Ming or Francis, then where are you going to get your points from. Rembember that 1-10 game of Francis?
MManal:- I have been the #1 Houston Fan of Yao Ming for a number of years. I even expected more in his first season. My comments were made because I am on a campaign to get the Rockets to use Moses Malone to help Yao Mings NBA transition. I have even been accused of considering Yao Ming as a Diety on these very pages (no truth in it of course). I am one of the fans that met him and his family at his arrival at the Airport. Forever documented on the arrival video.
Cuttino Mobley, Eddie Griffin, Kelvin Cato, Moochie Norris, Terence Morris, and a 1st Round Draft Pick for Jermaine O'Neal and Jamaal Tinsley. Cuttino Mobley, Edie Griffin, Kelvin Cato, and a 1st Round Draft Pick for Elton Brand and Quentin Richardson. Steve Francis, Eddie Griffin, and Kelvin Cato, Jason Collier, Bostjan Nachbar, or James Posey, as well as a future 1st Round Draft Pick for Jermaine O'Neal, Jamaal Tinsley, and Ron Mercer, Adam Harrington, or Brad Miller. Cuttino Mobley, Eddie Griffin, and Glen Rice for Antonio Davis, Alvin Williams, and a future 1st Round Draft Pick. Cuttino Mobley, Eddie Griffin, Moochie Norris, and a future 1st Round Draft Pick for Jermaine O'Neal and a 2nd Round Draft Pick or cash.
An awfully long post to basically say we need to move Mobley. But I do agree mostly, however if Francis is going to get more looks he has to do it at the 2... you can't have your playmaker with a shoot first mentality it just won't work. So if you want to make Yao and Steve the focus (which I agree is the only way to go if they are both on the team) his got to be our 2 and you should include that in your discussion. So then we do need to bring in a 1 and any discussion about the Rockets future that does not include potential pg's to acquire for next season is incomplete. Also if Francis moves to the 2 than Mobley has to be traded and not moved to the bench because there are just not enough minutes for him to make a real contribution. And he then becomes a disgruntled cancer on the bench. So if our focus is Yao and Francis and I agree it should be, and we give them more touches so that other teams have to double team to try to stop them than we need our other offensive players to be able to knock down a 3 every once and a while. So I believe it's very important that our SF can knock down threes with consistency and confidence and maybe to a lesser degree our pg should also be able to knock down an open 3. So don't bring in a pg our Sf that can't shoot lights out. No 1 on 1 players need apply. As for the PF spot I do like Eddie but he is just not the answer yet. Though if we do let him go I think we'll regret it because I think he will eventually develop into a star in this league ALA Jermaine Oneal but I agree we would be better served if our PF were a shot blocking rebounding Monster who can play D. So if we could find one of those(Not Likely) then do it. The only other thing I would add is we need more role players. People who know their jobs and or happy to come off the bench and contribute. Tmo is a perfect example of a role player who comes off the bench prepared to contribute and doesn't complain. The only problem is unless we move Rice we have no room at the Inn for TMO. Rice isn't part of our future and I Would rather see Posey and Nachbar get those minutes, especially if posey improves his 3, so moving Rice would be okay by me. All and all I think Rudy and Carroll will address most of these issues this offseason and the future looks good for the Rockets and their fans.
MManal, I agree that "too many cooks spoil the broth"; case in point, Portland. But adding a third star player I don't belive would cause this problem. You get into that area with a 4th or 5th player etc. Also adding a third star player that does not need the ball to be effective is key here. Don't over look that. Especially if you are talking about an Elton Brand, a Lamar Odom, an Andre Miller..... Ah, speaking of Lamar Odom and Andre Miller.... Lamar Odom and Andre Miller cross very closly into my "star" player category which is a player that is either an All Star or very close to an all star. Both of these players are very close to star type players. Tinsley is not a star but a role player and hasn't done all that well in Indiana. I will pass on him. In this category I would rather have Alvin Williams or Brent Barry over Tinsley. MManal, This really is the key to the entire argument. If this indeed happens then we don't need a third star player. As I prefeced in my original post, unless you have one of the TOP players in the NBA you need 3 star players. In your scenario Yao would be one of the TOP players in the NBA. I am not willing to go so far in suggesting that, yet.
MacBeth......since I believe you are located in Toronto, Ontario, Canada....I am guessing you watch the Toronto Raptors play frequently... Anyways. What player are they trying to obtain in the draft? Like a point guard, power forward, shooting guard, small forward, or center? I know...of course Lebron James... And is Jerome Williams any good? He is a hustle player...but has he ever made a middle distance shot or jumper? And who would the Raptors rather keep...Antonio Davis or Jerome Williams...if they could get Kelvin Cato? Cuttino Mobley, Eddie Griffin, and Glen Rice for Antonio Davis, Morris Peterson or a 1st Round Draft Pick, and Alvin Williams would be nice for Houston. We would have a pretty god team with a shooter, setupper, and rebounder. It would depend on what pick the Raptors get..If they can get #2 or #3...they can get a good power forward...which means no need for Antonio Davis or Jerome Williams or Eddie Griffin... Cuttino Mobley, Eddie Griffin, and Kelvin Cato for Morris Peterson, Alvin Williams, and Jerome Williams would be OK. Raptors... New point guard/Rafer Alston Cuttino Mobley/Anybody...Voshon Lenard Vince Carter/anybody... Antonio Davis/Eddie Griffin Kelvin Cato/all their crappy centers Alvin Williams/Eddie House or Jon Barry/Moochie Norris Steve Francis/Eddie House or Jon Barry/Juaquin Hawkins Morris Peterson/Bostjan Nachbar/Glen Rice Jerome Williams/Maurice Taylor/Terence Morris Yao Ming/Maybe Mengke Bateer or Vladamir Stepania/Jason Collier No stars are involved in this trade.
Perfect timing...just got back. 1) In terms of the draft, I think the Raptors are really looking for a 2nd star to pair with Carter. They would obviously take James, and after that it gets a tad confusing...many are saying Antony would be a perfect fit, but rumour has Toronto GM in love with Darko, having flown over to Europe to see him play twice in the last couple of months...If they fall lower in the draft, I think there are 3 possible routes..either draft Ford, move Williams ot sg and Carter to sf, draft Bosh as a project, or trade the pick. It's really a top 3 or bist kinf of deal...they would be perfectly happy with the draft falling as the odds have it. 2) Re: Jerome Williams...He's hard to eval...think Rodman, Outlaw, that kind of player. Not as exceptional a rebounder as the Worm, but a very, very good ball handler for a big man. Just hustles all the time, incredibly active...In terms of his shot, it's erratic. He can hit it at times, and he played all last year with a shoulder that needed surgery ( he couldn't straighten it out alll the way), and would have been out for the year if the Raps weren't already scrambling for healthy bodies, so it's hard to eval. Insiders had him really improving in camp. If there wasn't siginificant improvement, however, it's not very reliable at all...if it were he'd be a star. He makes amazing spin reverses, and blows layups. Fans absolutely love him for his amazing energy...hard to compare him to anyone right now other than Outlaw, but I feel he's got more ability than Bo. 3) Grunwald ( GM ) listed Davis as among the near untouchables, but I'd rather trade him than Williams, as a Raps fan...Not to say that AD isn't a player, he's a warrior, and his age isn't really relevant, as he, like an earlier Willis, is in incredible shape. He's a leader, a tough, tough player who does the grunt work, and when Carter was hurt a year ago, and the Raps went on that run to make the playoffs, it was on AD's back. He absolutely carried them...but he doesn't suit the kind of team the Raps will be if they get an Anthony or Darko, let alone James, and I feel his career would be prolonged if he could play the 4 full time instead of a lot of time at the 5 as is the case here. 4) Re: the trade...as much as I think Williams would be a perfect fit in Houston, I only see that happening if they fall to 4th or lower in the draft and take Ford. Otherwise, Williams is the heart and soul of this team. Aside from that, and being a fan of both teams, I have thought that a trade involving Mo Pete, AD on one end and Griff and Cato on the other would be a really nice fit for both teams for a while...maybe a future no. 1 thrown in to smooth the bumps. I honestly think it gives both teams what they need, a perfect case of coincidental strengths and weaknesses. Mobley wouldn't be necessary, IMO, unless they get Ford, and then we could get back Williams...it would work well, I think.
Leeb, I dont think Steve getting more shots would cause him to shoot like Iverson. Steve Francis simply has a much more consistent outside shot and not to mention is 3 inches taller than Iverson. Deuce, I have no problem adding Odom, Brand or Miller b/c none of guys have games predicated on jacking up a lot of shots like Mobley. The term a "third star" is very broad. For instance, if you add a player like Jason Terry or Jamal Crawford (who some on this board really want for what reason I dont know) it would take a significant amount of shots from Yao and Francis b/c both these guys need shots for their games to be effective. On the other hand, Odom, Brand or Miller may have bigger names than Terry or Crawford but neither have games predicated on taking a bunch of shots outside of the offensive flow. Thus, I have never said that the Rockets have to strip down and surround Yao and Francis with a bunch of CBA players; just surround them with players that COMPLEMENT their games. Yetti, I can understand your protest comments of wanting to get Moses Malone to coach Yao but honestly I doubt it will happen. Rudy is very stubborn and adamant about keeping his asst coaches in place and doesnt seem to be interested in seeking outside help.
MManal, I recently caught some Bulls games from this season, and I was wondering, what's your take on Jamaal Crawford? I also want to ask what your thoughts are on Jalen Rose playing in the backcourt with Steve? To be honest with you, I'd love to see one of those 2 guys here, but it would take a major deal. I think the Bulls would be more than happy to take Mobley and Rice for Rose, or just Mobleyfor Crawford. I have to say, I agree that we need to focus our offense on Yao/Steve, however, this team still needs that 3rd option. That 3rd option is actually able to score in bunches, but only does when needed, and when not taking tons of shots, he's helping out some other way. Elton Brand is that type of guy, Shawn marion, Sean Elliott when the Spurs won, and Derek Fisher in the Lakers 2nd title run. Those who say this team's shooting would NOT improve by getting Brand, well think again. Brand is about 5 more offensive rebounds per game than MoT. Are you telling me that a rebounding powerhouse like Yao/Brand will not make up for some off-nights, then I must disagree. Yao and Brand will easily combine for 20 rebounds a night, and 5 blocks. But what's important is that Brand won't take more shots than MoT did, will score more, and will be useful even without the ball. Brand is a long shot, but still, he should be our #1 priority. PG's are available, and if we have a trio of Yao/Brand/Steve with Steve at the 2, I can live with any decent PG in the league. Any minimum signing, small trade acquisition, draft pick. But once you have that core in place, THEN, we're looking to just find chemistry.
Wait........Elton Brand. Jermaine O'Neal. Andre Miller. Jason Kidd. Lamar Odom. Crawford. Alvin Williams. Tinsley. They all sound nice. But really..........does everybody support Steve moving to the 2? Is anyone against it? Why? I think Steve would be awesome on offense against taller and slower shooting guards...because the opposing point guards would still have to respect our point guard like Crawford or Tinsley or Williams.....who can all score as well. Our point guard should be someone who can handle the ball and pass and is tall and can make an open shot and can play defense and doesn't have an attitude problem (Crawford). Our shooting guard can be Steve Francis....since he is a good shooter...and he would really be great at the 2 in my opinion. On defense...put our tall point guard on whoever is the better scorer that night....or zone defense! Our small forward should be a shooter. It would be lovely if he could dunk as well...but he really needs to be able to shoot. Our power forward....well it would be nice to get Jermaine O'Neal or Elton Brand, but not gonna happen. I wish. Our power forward mainly needs to be able to rebound and block a few shots and defend and make put backs and tipins. And he needs to be an enforcer. And it would be nice to make a few open jumpers... Yao Ming is our center. Everyone else should compliment him! There are many possibilities....and I would love to have Elton Brand and even Marko Jaric...or Quentin Richardson. But a great team would be Alvin Williams, Steve Francis, Morris Peterson, Antonio Davis, and Yao Ming.
MManal- Just because you think he's a better shooter doesn't mean its true. Iversons 2nd yr he shot 46% from the field which is ok, but the first yr he moved to sg , he went down almost .50% to 41%. His asst went down and his to's went up. Iversons 2nd yr he was right at 2:1 as a pg, but after that it went to hell. Know why? Trying to do too much too quick against bigger stronger players. Yes he won the MVP and for 1 yr they went to the finals with that team in the east, but its a whole different ball game in the west. bobby Jackson is clearly a better offensive player than Christie, but having Jackson play all the time against Kobe's,Finley's, Wells and guys like that really would put strain on him. larry Brown basically took about 3 yrs off Iverson career with that move. In the short term it may seem pretty good, but how much better would that team be with Iverson at the pg, Stackhouse at the 2 and Thomas at the 3? I think long term, that could have been a real championship quality team instead of a wannabe.
Seriously, Iverson and Stackhouse in the backcourt? No way in hell. Iverson was just made to take as many shots as he wants, and to control the fate of his team. He can't play any different than that. I definitely think a Iverson/Stack/Thomas trio would fail miserably, as they are ALL selfish, and ALL have huge egos. Francis is 3 inches taller than Ivy. Mobley is only 1 inch taller than Steve. I think that getting Eric Snow or Gary Payton would make it so easy to move steve to the 2. To be quite honest with you, I see it more as adding another PG than moving Steve to the 2. I doubt Steve will ever be able to play exclusively off the ball, and is bound to go back to the 1 often. Payton would be amazing for this team.
