You would be amazed... Especially by some in your own congregation. I still recall a girl I was crazy about stating that everyone who wasn't Christian was going to Hell. I argued with her about that for hours. We broke up shortly thereafter. While I still disagree with a homosexual having EVERY right. (ie: Priesthood, marriage), they should be treated as any other person would be. Believe me, I've changed my stance immensely since I was 21. (To BJ: Please don't send this to D&D. Email me if you'd like to debate, or start a new thread.) That said, I live in a predominantly gay complex and I am loving it! (Seinfeld ref.) I really hope I ever see someone toss eggs when I'm outside because I will go ape-**** on them. And, for whatever reason, women LOVE the fact that I'm enlightened enough to live here! And don't get me started on how well it works with our condo maintenance guys. They are willing to do anything. ie. take my trash downstairs, buy me a carton of smokes.
Texas is a "right to hire", "right to fire" state. There doesn't need to be a reason, unless you're with a union. You've lived here before, haven't you? Our pride is our "rugged individualism!"
Fatty, as long as anyone believes that gays don't deserve to be treated like everyone else this kind of thread belongs in D&D. If it winds up there, it won't be because of anything I do but because the rights of gay people to be treated like anyone else are not yet a given and are still a subject for debate. At any rate, there's no need for me to get all heated over this story. The gardeners are making such asses of themselves and their business is so clearly destroyed it's almost impossible to get sincerely pissed off. When I first read the email I was pissed off by their ignorance; now I just kind of feel sorry for them. It has to suck to have one's righteousness and even core religious beliefs all wrapped up in hating people for being who they are. You're not like them. You don't hate gay people. You even seem to like them in a mildly offensive faux paternal way. You've realized that they not only don't threaten you or your manhood or your way of life but that they can be so friendly they might even buy you cigarettes! Even still, you would deny them the joy of celebrating their love of each other through marriage or their love of God through the clergy. I think you're wrong there, but I don't begrudge you that since I think it is learned discrimination -- not born of hate or resentment but of ignorance (and by that I mean naivite, not stupidity). You say they should be treated like everyone else in the very sentence after you've stated the exceptions to that rule. Fifty years ago similar things were written about black people and it very easy to imagine someone saying, "I live near black people and it turns out they're great. One of them even carried my groceries to my apartment for me. I think they're just like the rest of us and should be treated that way. As long as they don't try to date white women or vote." I'm not trying to be a dick, Fatty. I think you're on the right track and, while I think you are clearly not there yet, I think you'll eventually get to a place in your mind where you will live this idea of treating gays like everyone else. I'm rooting for you.
Perhaps. We'll see in three years, won't we, old man. (you are 3 years older, after, all) Personally, I have NO problem with a "civil union". Mainly for tax purposes. If they find a church that honors them as "married", so be it. Secondly, and I mean this without offense, I am an Episcopalian. We've been through this before, so there is no reason to debate it again. I simply feel that I would feel uncomfortable having a homosexual priest. Since you aren't a God-fearing man, I suppose it is just something that neither of us may understand, and that's fine! BTW, you'd ever figure out my Beverly Cleary comment? BTW, is your name Jason? I forget... If it is, I did read the reviews, and it sounded promising. If I have a girlfriend the next time you're in town, I might have to go.
Also, Batman, realize that EVERY thing that works successfully is slow and incremental. (must... stop... with... admin...) Could homosexuals have every right? It's possible. But also look back on history. Everytime this has happened to a society, another society topples them. I watched an entire thing on the History Channel on that. There is something that is essentially taboo about it. And, historically speaking, it was never favored, and was always vanquished by a more "prurient" society. Will we be the one that keeps them afloat? From what I've seen, I'm hopeful. But also realize that many nations equalize homosexuality with pedophilia and incest and etc. All I can say is, historically speaking, if you truly want homosexuals to flourish and be recognized, you need to be all for our Country building up as many defenses as possible. "Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it." PLEASE watch and read more history, if you get the chance. Remember the great book burning? Do you realize they actually found batteries that dated B.C.? (sorry... history rant... I'll try to not let it happen again.)
Cool, Fatty. My name is a secret identity except to those who drink with me and you are a testament to the fact that, having done so, they usually forget what it was. It's like that gas I spray on people before I drive them in or out of the Batcave. But whatever my name is when I'm not wearing this mask, yes, I got and get hell of good reviews. And yes you should see a show sometime. With a girlfriend, alone or with a boyfriend. All sorts are welcome at the plays I make. I'm not suggesting here that any church changes its stance on gays since I don't belong to any church. I am, however, an American citizen and seeing how this country's form of government is almost a democracy (a democratic republic's the same for these purposes), I hope you'll excuse me for expressing my opinion that our government has no business deciding who should be able to marry whom. I think churches that refuse to marry gays (or interracial couples for that matter) are engaging in bigotry, but that's not my beef. My beef is with the United States of America engaging in that sort of discrimination. Whether or not I was a religious person I would never attend a service in which the spiritual leader and/or the congregation felt a gay person was less qualified to talk about the path to heaven than a straight one, but that's just because I think it's stupid to gauge such things by a person's natural tendencies regarding sex and romance. Even so, my beef is not with those people. In America all people are meant to be allowed their beliefs, however offensive any other person might find them to be. My beef is with President Bush and the various elected officials and private citizens who say they are "against gay marriage" and want to do something to prevent it. You are still one of those people. You did, however, leave out opposition to allowing gay folks to die in the military service of this country so the trend is good. Oh. You asked before if I'd ever lived in Texas. Yes. For 30 years all told. All of them in Houston -- the home of the second largest gay population per capita in the country. It was there that I met and befriended a great many gays and lesbians and overcame my own bigotry toward same. And it was there that I learned to regard the characterization of discrimination as "rugged individualism" to be patently offensive and morally bankrupt. But, again, I don't think for a minute you'd suggest the same thing a few years from now. And I think that's great.
Just saw your last one. Please don't encourage me to read more history as though you've read more than I have and I would benefit from reading as much as you. I've done that, I promise. And while a condescending instruction to read more from someone who has clearly not out-read me will not get me riled (I'm in far too blissful a state these days personally for that), it will bore me away from this forum again. Yes. I know that all tolerance comes incrementally. You should know, if you don't, that it also comes from people insisting that it come. And yes I also know that old trope about acceptance of gays leading to the downfalls of civilizations. But unless you believe the hand of God is responsible for that, it's an awfully superstitious argument against granting full and equal rights to gay people. And if you do believe God is working that sort of punishment, you're exactly like that girl you broke up with for telling you you were going to hell for not believing exactly what she believed. As for our "Country building up as many defenses as possible," I have no idea what you're talking about. But if you are characterizing discrimination, however small, as a national defense, well, I can only suggest that you "read more."
I hope you read my second statement above. To you, however: If the Gov't is willing to recognize a "civil union", and the church that marries you determines you "married", how in the world is that so different? After all, don't you approve of a separation between Church and State??? And you have every right to call a church "bigoted" if they choose not to marry them. And I have every right to say, you can take everything but the house. And, with you living in Texas, you should know that homophobia was taught MUCH more on the playground than it was ever taught in the household. Me, being the "manly" man I was back in the day chose to ignore them. Funny thing about Bellaire H.S. (at least in my day) I truly never saw anyone get picked on that much. Although I can honestly say I was never rude to anyone I ever knew was gay, or quite frankly nerdy. I had my own bout of nerdiness growing up, and I could always remember the hurt... (And that would've been Kingwood. Where you live in Houston dictates a lot...) That said, I just didn't want to be around homo's. Too afraid they'd try and grab my privates, or flirt, or whatever. But the more I got people to take me out to those places, the more I realized that they weren't like that. As long as you told them what was up, they'd leave you alone. I'm cool with them, and pretty much everything they're about. Just respect my church.
Again, cool Fatty. Read my second post above. The US government is trying to and succeeding at passing laws -- govermental laws -- against gays marrying. Of course I am for a separation of church and state. These laws are not only discriminatory and un-Constitutional (hence the need for an amendment to the Constitution) but they are a direct violation of that separation. If you are for that separation, I guess I can assume you are against those laws. But are you really against the idea of gays marrying?
God's will? Hardly! Personally, unless God still loves playing WAR, I seriously doubt that He puts humans on this soil who are born on the "evil" side, or vice-versa. What I am saying is that, for whatever reason, both Athenians and Romans allowed homosexuality to flourish near the end of their reign. I'd prefer to build our defenses before my son or his grandchildren see another overthrowing. People tend to forget that we are, by far, the youngest nation ever to be known as the "Superpower." (both Rome and Athens held it for 500 years, and it took centuries for them to become them.) BTW, what have you read/watched about it? If you have opposing books, I'd love to get them. I love history.
p.s. With regard to where you grow up in Texas, I grew up in Southwest Houston, West U and Montrose. And in each of those places I was taught bigotry towards gays. It's not a matter of how picked on they were. Times have changed since I was growing up, but back then you could be sure they were as closeted as they could manage because they felt like total pariahs. And the fact of them feeling that way and living in the closet is way worse than if they'd just gotten beaten up once in a while.
As I stated, I think the best thing would be for the Gov't to recognize "civil unions." Therefore, all homosexuals would have the same rights as any other married person. As to the "marriage", aspect, that would, and should be determined by the church. For example, before my horrific marriage took place, we had to go to 5... I repeat, 5 counseling sessions before our priest would determine we should be married. (BTW... Bad call.. But, I will give him kudos. He definitely questioned us A LOT) Every church should have their own rights. Separation of Church and State... But, honestly, all homosexuals want is to be recognized. The word "Civil Union" should do that nicely. Anything more, ie. "marriage" being recognized, isn't even Constitutional.
As for the last one, homosexuality has existed as long as sexuality has. Yes I am aware of Greco-Roman history and no I do not have any books that suggest those empires did not fall. I just think it's silly to draw a correlation between the ends of those empires and attitudes toward sex. But if you're worried about your unborn progeny and think that stopping gay marriage will help to save their lives, by all means, go ahead and oppose it. That will probably be way better for them than worrying about wrongheaded, elective wars or the deficits they will inherit from the same people that have you all worked up over gay marriage. Or it won't. Either way, it'll definitely be easier.
Fatty, the proposed amendment doesn't say churches shouldn't be forced to allow gay marriage -- it says gay marriage should be illegal. Civil Unions vs. marriage is an exact replica of the "Separate but equal" arguments applied to different educational institutions for blacks and whites. Words matter here. Every American grows up thinking about getting "married." And "civil unions" are separate but they are not equal. When we went through this with black people it was determined in the courts that there is no such thing as "separate but equal" since "separate" is inequal. I ask again, leaving the churches out of this since Bush has made this a governmental affair, do you oppose gays marrying? Do you oppose them using the word? And, if you do, are you still trying to say you support them being treated like anyone else? Because that is not that.
I disagree entirely. I was moved around to a different school from the 5th-10th grade. The last move being my choice. Not to get too personal, but when I first moved to Kingwood, I had just come from a school that I was very popular at. Problem was, it was in Alaska. So I go in with this chip on my shoulder, and I got beaten down quickly. Not only for my gullibility (which I still have), but for my original horneryness. Anyhoo, I break my arm in a three-wheeler accident, so I'm out of school for a week. When I come back to school, everyone said I broke my arm masturbating. People came out of the woodwork with rumors about catching me in the closet, etc. Then, when I think I'm done with it and move to high school, the rumors came back. I still recall holding hands with this girl during a pep rally, and this dick (Stuart-remember the name), came and whispered in her ear. Next thing I know, she simply walked away. No good-bye. Nothing. I wasn't thinking suicide, but I was definitely thinking about running away. Thank God for my parents. They moved from Kingwood to Bellaire the next year. After that, everyone at Bellaire just seemed normal. Believe it or not, Bellaire's diversity leads much more to acceptance. Back to Stuart-f***** (and I mean this in the most demeaning way), he ended up going to Tx Tech, as well. And he tried his stupid little (he broke his hand jerking off in 86!), to which all my frat brothers said "who hasn't? Get a life, loser! (he was a TKE and we were Delt... He had nothing) Most vindicating experience of my life, and why I would never try to hurt someone I knew already hurt. Nobody knows this, and I've never stated this before, but the ONE guy who was on the football team (QB) I was on in Kingwood who stood up for me was named Derrick, also. Another reason I named my son that. Wish I could remember his name... I'd like to thank him, now that I thought of it.
Your story proves my point. The idea that being "caught in the closet" or being gay is the worst thing you could have been back then is why so many gay kids remained in the closet and the resultant self-loathing is worse than any beating. The fact that gay marriage is being opposed, even today, is an extension of that. It is still not okay for those people to be who they are because, as in your story, it is the worst thing you could be. **** that and **** Bush for pushing it in order to win elections. It is wrong and everybody who knows it should say it over and over, as loud as we can, as it was with rights and equality for blacks until it's fixed. That is all.
