1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

We are watching an all-time great in his Prime

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by riko, Dec 16, 2018.

?

are we taking harden for granted

  1. No

    18.2%
  2. Yes

    81.8%
  1. aelliott

    aelliott Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 1999
    Messages:
    5,633
    Likes Received:
    4,339
    The rules also make guys like Steph Curry much better too. As great of a shooter as Curry is, he would have issues with big physical defenders if they were allowed to hand check and bang him around.
     
  2. Deuce

    Deuce Context & Nuance

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2001
    Messages:
    26,579
    Likes Received:
    35,658
    Curry would be exposed BIG TIME if his ALL STAR cohorts were replaced with "average level replacement players"......like Harden has next to him. Where Curry didn't benefit from gravity. Where Curry could be specifically game planned against without having to worry about other All Star players.

    Let Curry be ALONE and be the engine for his team for 82 games. It would be an eye-opener to many, in my opinion.

    I hope we can see that in a few years.
     
  3. topfive

    topfive CF OG

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2002
    Messages:
    19,093
    Likes Received:
    37,555
    You're right about hand checking and no zones, but I've gotta disagree about the slower paces. The four highest-scoring NBA games ever were between '82 and '90.

    Looking at average points per game by a team, every single year during the eighties ranks in the top 30, but the only recent year included is this year (because of the the new rules).

    Harden would have been a superstar in any era because his entire game is predicated on bending the rules so they work in his favor. He could do that with any particular set of rules because he's got genius-level BBIQ and is amazing at making split-second decisions.
     
    #203 topfive, Dec 26, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2018
  4. aelliott

    aelliott Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 1999
    Messages:
    5,633
    Likes Received:
    4,339
    First, I'll point out the obvious,rebounding isnt about high high you jump. It's about positioning, reading the ball, desire and effort.

    If you believe that Rodman could hardly dunk, then you never saw him play or it's just hyperbole. Rodman was an athletic freak with incredible desire. He had the strength to fight with the giants in the paint and had the quickness and desire to beat people to the ball.

    With all the space in todays game, it would be impossible to keep him of the boards. Russell Westbrook can average double figure rebounds in todays game through quickness and desire. Rodman was a bigger more single focused version of Westbrook.

    You are correct that Curry can shoot from 25 feet but can he shoot with a big guard like Derek Harper having his hands on him preventing him from getting where he wants to go? That's a huge difference. In fact, it's a completely different game.

    Different rules will benefit different players. If you think that Steph Curry would have dominated a guy like Gary Payton, you're sadly mistaken.
     
    BigMaloe, joshuaao, CHI and 3 others like this.
  5. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 1999
    Messages:
    62,615
    Likes Received:
    56,405
    I agree that Rules changes had a profound effect, but one big rule change was designed to stop simple offenses, and opened the door to the new defenses schemes we see today in the NBA.

    The most important rule change of last 25 years was eradicating the Illegal Defense Rules -- thx to Rudy and Iverson making an mockery of it.

    Eradiction of Illegal Defense effectively killed the Big Man....by clogging the lane.​

    That rule change greatly benefits defenses, providing more freedom to stop superstars...without it, you cannot have switching (due to the way weakside help works in switching schemes) or all the new ways to stop PnR, like dropping a big or playing ICE with 3 defenders on the strong-side.

    bottomline: That rule change forced offenses to shoot more threes to create space...and now we've found spacing and 3s is actually the best way to go all these years regardless of what the rules were. The Rule change placed a big premium on 3 & D players who could help both sides of the new era NBA:
    1. create the new defenses to emphasize length and multi-positional defense, and
    2. help space the floor to beat those new defenses.
     
    BigMaloe likes this.
  6. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    37,717
    Likes Received:
    18,919
    Rules had to change because the players were getting much better on the defensive end of the court. We saw this with the scoring plummeting i the 90's where half the teams were under 100 ppg. That wasnt because people couldn't shoot, it was because the defenses got better - the players got better defensively.
     
  7. Caesar

    Caesar Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2014
    Messages:
    6,231
    Likes Received:
    6,252
     
    daywalker02 likes this.
  8. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    37,717
    Likes Received:
    18,919
    Rebounding isn't as much about positioning in today's game as defenses aren't playing one on one and boxing out the same way. Your understanding of the game does't reflect how quick the modern game is - rebounding is no longer something that your big men do - it's a team effort. Today a lot of rebounding is about out jumping a guy and tipping it because you can't wait for the ball to come down. Yes positioning still counts but athleticism is a bigger part of rebounding. Capela gets rebounds from athleticism and hustle - not because he is great at figuring out reading the ball.

    And no, Rodman was never a big jumper - his dunks barely cleared the rim and were all easy dunks where he was running towards the rim or no one was guarding him.
     
  9. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    37,717
    Likes Received:
    18,919
    Do you not see how much slower that is?
     
  10. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2006
    Messages:
    90,974
    Likes Received:
    43,831
    People forgot about the past.
     
  11. aelliott

    aelliott Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 1999
    Messages:
    5,633
    Likes Received:
    4,339
    Rebounding is no longer something that big men do? Really, let's see who the leagu leader are.

    Drummond, Jordan, Love, Embiid, Whiteside, Giannis, AD, Capela, Gorbert, Vucevic,Thompson, Townes, Kantor, Ayton.

    Those guys are all huge. Way bigger than Rodman or Barkley. Also notice that the vast majority of those guys arent big leapers.

    I do agree that athleticism is a big part but you seem to be ignoring the fact that Rodman was a freak athletically.

    BTW it doesn't matter if you are playing man or zone, you still have to block out.

    Here's one of those dunks from the guy who could barely dunk and only dunked when no one was guarding him.

     
    #211 aelliott, Dec 26, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2018
  12. Caesar

    Caesar Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2014
    Messages:
    6,231
    Likes Received:
    6,252
    Well. You said intensity and asked if he lost his mind. The game absolutely was more intense physically and the crowds were absolutely nuts.

    As far as slower game as opposed to a positionless small ball game with where players aren’t really allowed to play physical defense? Sure. That doesn’t make it better though IMO.

    For me personally a mix of 90s ball with today’s 3pt shooting efficiency and pgs and sfs would be amazing.
    The power forward and small forward have basically fused to become one forward position of the same skill sets in differing physical sizes/lateral quickness. PGs are allowed much more freedom to be high usg and high turnover guards.

    Cs are weaker. Sgs still aren’t anything special. PGs are evolved but let’s not pretend everyone on the court is prime LeBron, Westbrook and giannis type of athletes. On average the lower half of the league is more athletic but that doesn’t mean they’re better especially since a lot of the good athletes suck at basketball. I’d rather see a blue collar role player who knows his role.

    Even with PGs being very evolved, they’re not all Westbrook or wall. Most are highly developed scoring skills they wouldn’t be allowed to use in the 90s IMO especially if they’re limited in 3pt shots. Their 2s are typically 43% level efficiency.

    Do I think someone like Curry would be unanimous MVP type of Curry in the 90s? No. But he’d still be as feared as Reggie Miller.

    At the same time do I think some 90s point guards would be all stars today? No. But there’s non all stars of then that would shine today like Abdul-Rauf.

    Do I think Karl Malone would be an MVP in today’s era? No. But would Westbrook, and all these dudes be allowed to do what they do with such high turnover rates and USG in a league where the point guard is supposed to be the captain and control the ball and the pace and play smart? No. They’d probably be shooting guards with much less USG.

    Do I think guys like giannis and Simmons would play the same or get near the same stats? No. They’d probably be forced to play more traditional PF game with coaches not trusting them to handle the ball as much.

    Different eras with positives and negatives. I personally don’t like how most teams all play the same and most players skill sets are very similar of today but that’s just me.

    It’s certainly not as bad as older fans who watched multiple generations make it out to be and it’s certainly not as good as newer fans who never experienced other generations(other than YouTube without context and without emotion or knowing the stakes and their own bias etc) make this era out to be.
     
  13. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    37,717
    Likes Received:
    18,919
    something that ONLY big men do. You look at the average defensive rebounding of those guys, and I bet Westbrook comes close. You go back 20 years and I guarantee you there's probably 3 times as many (probably many more than that) guys who are not C's of PF's getting more than 5 rebs a night. You got 3 pg's and many guards, and a ton of small forwards getting 5+ defensive rebounds a night. That wasn't the case 20 years ago. Today's big men get more offensive rebounds but that's primarily a result of fewer post-ups (post-ups put you in poor offensive rebounding position).

    Yes you box out today - but it's a lot harder because you aren't already in contact with an offensive player the way you uses to be. You're scrambling on D much more which is why rebounding has become a team effort.

    And BTW, if that's the best Rodman dunk you can find it's not very impressive.
     
  14. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    37,717
    Likes Received:
    18,919
    Intensity was a poor choice of word. I meant the amount of energy being expended in movement. And today's NBA is very physical, you just can't touch a player as much on the perimeter. I think there's ,more contact going on now that doesn't get called simply because the movements are so energetic and powerful today it's hard to even tell if there is contact. Lebron, Harden, Curry get a lot of non-called contact that you never saw a guy like Cassell get (and he drove with abandon)
     
  15. don grahamleone

    don grahamleone Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2001
    Messages:
    23,398
    Likes Received:
    33,599
    You’re not a great reader. I said “entire career”. I stand by that. You picked out one small stretch of his career and basically said that’s the only argument you had. He was great that year. Agreed but this is about his entire career.
     
  16. aelliott

    aelliott Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 1999
    Messages:
    5,633
    Likes Received:
    4,339
    I'm confused. You started off saying that it was so hard to even get a rebound in the current NBA. Now you are pointing out that everybody and their brother can average at least 5 rebounds per game.

    If rebounding were hard to do, then Steph Curry doesn't average 5 rebounds per game.

    Last season 107 players averaged 5 or mor rebounds per game. In the '91-'92 season 108 players averaged 5 or more rebounds per season.

    The major difference was there was a whole lot more big guys on the court. Theres no dominant centers any more and there certainly arent twin tower lineups anymore.

    It's a whole lot easier for a CP3 or Curry to go in and grab rebounds when they dont have to contend with the likes of Hakeem, Ewing, Shaq, Robinson, Mutumbo and Malones of the world.

    Go back and watch highlights of the '86 finals. Little guys weren't going to get a lot of rebounds with Olajuwon, Sampson, Parish, McHale, Walton, Bird and Peterson in the paint.

    BTW there were non center and PF getting rebounds back then but they were generally all bigger guys.

    In the '92 season, I count 22 non Centers or PF who averaged 5 or more boards. If you believe that theres 66 (3x)today then you are kidding yourself.

    As for Rodmans dunk, it wasnt intended to suggest that he was a great dunker. It was to show that the statements that he could barely dunk or that he could only dunk when uncovered were more gross exagerations.

    Rodman was lightning quick and incredibly fast off his feet and played with incredible intensity. As you've pointed out, todays spacing makes it harder to find your man to box out. Rodman would dominate under those conditions. His rebounding numbers would be off the charts.

    If players played in a different era, they would adapt to those rules and play differently. Jordan would shoot more 3s. Under today's rules he would also be unguardable off the dribble. Back in the era when you could pretty much mug the ballhandler, Jordan was averaging around 10 free throws per game. In todays no touch league, he would live at the line.

    The main difference is that if todays players had to play under the old rules against so many big guys who were able to push them around, many would have problems. Anthony Davis would likely be bulked up in order to compete. How would Steph Curry change? He'd be at a huge disadvantage just because he's such a slight guy. If big strong PGs could hand check him and keep him from going where he wanted, he'd have problems creating space to get his shot off. A lightning fast release doesn't do much good if your defender can have his hands on you the entire game.

    Todays players are certainly skilled but you seem to be implying that they are more athletic.
    I'll stack up Olajuwon or Kemp or Wilkins or Jordan's athleticism against anyone in the league today.
     
    BigMaloe likes this.
  17. aelliott

    aelliott Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 1999
    Messages:
    5,633
    Likes Received:
    4,339
    You really need to go watch some old Bad Boys videos.

    The stuff that they did to Jordan every time that he went into the lane would be a flagrant or a suspension today.

    Olajuwon was basically in a wrestling match every time he posted up.

    Todays game is way less physical.
     
  18. Caesar

    Caesar Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2014
    Messages:
    6,231
    Likes Received:
    6,252
    Nah man. You'd be in the minority if you think there's more contact these days with all the rules changes. The idea of the game looking more energetic or intense or explosive or whatever word you want to use is all because of the freedom offensive players are allowed to have now.

    Take any past All-Star game for example. To me, looks plenty of energetic or whatever word you meant to say.
    Here's one from 1985 when MJ was a rook. Looks like a lot of fun and energy to me and athleticism to me. (Keep an eye on the bodies in the paint throughout and the bodies crashing the boards and overall contact-and this is just an all-star game).
     
  19. photojoe

    photojoe Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2013
    Messages:
    3,176
    Likes Received:
    3,315
    That year when Ward's Heat won the Finals, in the playoffs they beat the Bulls, the Nets, the Pistons and then the Mavs. None of which were even in the same category as the Warriors are now.

    Those teams had one great player and good supporting casts, so one superstar player could make a much bigger impact on the series. Not 2 superstars and 4 all stars.

    Saying that 2006 Wade is better than Harden because the Heat won the Finals that year is not a fair comparison at all
     
  20. hou$tonScrew$tonTX

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2018
    Messages:
    366
    Likes Received:
    626
    You’re getting way ahead of yourself. Harden has never stepped it up in the playoffs much less win a championship. Meanwhile DWade has multiple championships and played better defense his career.
     

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now