And to everyone else before I listen to what you all think on the issue: (because there are good arguements both pro and con). My main issue with the waterboarding tactic (and torture as a whole) is how people seem to want to downplay the enormity of the topic. Torture is NEVER something that should be entered into lightly..whether it be 5 minutes or 5 hours. I do not like to make sweeping indictments of either political spectrum..but I see an ever growing trend of the far right to want to downplay the enormous moral and ethical issues posed by this practice. Instead of seeking to soothe our moral conscience they instead blame the "liberals" for making it an issue at all. I would hope that the moral concern can be seen by both the left and right alike. Alternatives to this practice need to be found if we are ever going to begin to reconcile our need to be morally upright with our need to be and feel safe. I appreciate those that would take an honest look at this issue and where they stand as a matter of principle. I can accept not being able to convince everyone to see as I do..but I cannot accept the "Oh it was just 5 minutes so that makes the ethical problem go away" or "if the liberals would just be thankful for the freedom we provide and not question the manner in which we provide it" arguement. If you are a proponent of this practice and wish to truly convince myself and those like me, go about it through more enlightened means and try not to resort to using "liberal" and "left" as being terms representative of horrible people that hate our country and everyone in it. Because you know that is not the case. In closing, I speak of socratic ideals because they represent the epitome of what our society in its best and purest form should be. Past regimes have fallen short of this standard (and in fairness we have yet to live up to it ourselves). However, this does not mean that we should simply give up on the attempt. The world we live in is far from perfect, so therefore the ideals of socrates may never fully be realized in any government. However, I do believe that these stadards (truth, justice, virtue) should be held in the highest possible esteem and only forsaken in the most base and dire of circumstances when all hope for these ideals is cast aside.
What McCain went through is much worse that the stuff we have admitted to doing. Torture is wrong I agree, but so is dropping Thermobaric weapons near civilians -- in the grand scheme of things of course. <--24/7 Rick Astley Roll----waterboarding------abu ghraib------------------------drawn and quartered--> Do you think prisoners would rather have for instance a hot iron stuck on their forehead until they spill the beans or be waterboarded?
So because there are worse forms of torture, that doesn't mean some torture is OK. torture is wrong, period.
There are many things we do that are wrong that we continue to do without pause. There are worse and illegal ways of fighting wars (chemical weapons/ nukes/ etc.), but we still manage to find a way to go to battle.
all those kids out there did you hear? if you're doing bad in chemistry don't bother to study for the other classes you're doing a bit better in. because until you fix chemistry...its all useless.
What is the new baseline for what is considered torture and how far up the ladder is waterboarding? As refman has asked several times now - what is the alternative to torture in a crisis?
This discussion is based on opinions. Obviously my opinion of waterboarding depends on having complete facts, including alternative means to achieve the information. If you can't understand that, then there is little reason to debtate with you. And of course, you attempt to belittle anybody who would dare mention any validity to an opnion other than your own. Keep nipping at heels little chihuahua...BAD chihauhau...happy now?
I guess no one is going to admit to being pro-abortion. It's really quite simple - does America endorse killing the unborn or not?
That is silly. Even the most ardent pro-choice advocate would tell you that they would prefer to have fewer abortions. So there isn't really a pro-abortion faction that I am aware of. And ask anybody around here...I lean toward the pro-life side of the debate. I just feel that you have mischaracterized the pro-choice side of the debate.
The techniques listed in the army field manual would be the alternatives. McCAin said that the generals told him they were getting all of the information they needed following that. So I'm guessing those are the alternatives that we should use.
^Right -- as I suspected, I am sorry to have tangled with a mighty PSYCHOLOGY MINOR. As I recall correctly, this is from the same guy (alumni) who tried to claim that U of H was a "top-tier" law school It really is...if you omit the first 9 tiers, you are absolutely correct. It is top shelf -- that is not a question. Refman - I have no misconception that if you take your law degree, accompanied by your PSYCH minor - CRAVATH would SWOON - as would MOORE! ....and that is even without being able to spell chihuahua. U R SMRT
I would think that they would start with the basics and work their way up the ladder depending on the situation - doesn't seem that waterboarding is ever a first option. I wouldn't think waterboarding is as common a practice as some believe just from the fact that going through the process is a time consuming hassle for the person who has to set it up and deal with a screaming out of control prisoner. That would have to be mentally draining as well to have to torture people all the time. I haven't fact checked the thread title is the information correct? The danger is always a situation like abu ghraib where there is a complete breakdown of command. You have sadistic people running the operation who seem to torture prisoners for sick entertainment value alone - clearly beyond anything they were commanded to do through military protocol.
I have no idea how common waterboarding is, but I think either way it should never be done, and condoned by our govt. If it is done, it should never be sanctioned by our govt. I don't think in cases like Iraq where they'd have you believe torture happened every day was really like that either. I think there were definitely periods of time where that happened, and there were probably periods of time where it was very rare. Obviously the less it's done the better, I just don't think it should ever be done at all. I can't imagine that there aren't other ways to interrogate, and that waterboarding is anymore reliable than other forms. If people die for this nation in combat, or sacrifice for our freedoms, we should make our country one worth dying for. Torture just lowers us to the enemy's level.
You, as usual, add nothing to the debate. You sit there with your sense of sel importance, and attempt to belittle all who dare to disagree with you. Congrats on the being the first person in almost six years of posting to be put on my ignore list, jackass.
You address this in a way that wants to convey that waterboarding is a daily/weekly activity. It is very rare and requires Executive approval on a case by case basis. It is a rare event. Furthermore, you keep referencing the army field manual but do a Google search and every story is about the use of waterboarding by the CIA-- not the Army. Could it be that it is banned by the Army precisely because the US doesn't want it to become widespread in use? One of the news stories I read referenced a CIA chief confirming that waterboarding is still "in our quiver" but with severe limitations on its use. What's illegal one day can be illegal the next day. Things change. Would you want the CIA to use waterboarding to coerce confession about a terrorist attack planned in your community? Or are you going to pull a Jack Bauer and go take care of the problem yourself?
giddy, I don't care if it happened once, twice, or hundred times. If it happened at all, and our govt. says it is OK, then our govt. is guilty of supporting torture. There are no two ways about it. I would never want the CIA to use waterboarding no matter what. Unlike some others, I am against torture. I am against a govt. that I would hope would occupy the moral high ground would never ever sanction and approve torture. Once we do, we are no better in that regard than a dictator from Latin America, the Middle East or anywhere else. Govts. that torture are wrong!
