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Waterboarding - 5 Minutes 5 Years Ago

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by El_Conquistador, Feb 15, 2008.

  1. El_Conquistador

    El_Conquistador King of the D&D, The Legend, #1 Ranking
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    Great article below that totally invalidates the hyped-up, exaggerated claims of the liberals and the 'torture state' that we allegedly now live in... Don't you love it when light is shined on the liberals' falsehoods and exaggerations? EXPOSED

    Five Minutes Well Spent
    Keeping waterboarding as an interrogation technique is not the slippery slope some say it is.

    By Jonah Goldberg

    Less than five minutes.

    That’s the total amount of time the United States has waterboarded terrorist detainees. How many detainees? Three. Who were these detainees?

    One was Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, “the principle architect of the 9/11 attacks” according to the 9/11 Report, and the head of al-Qaeda’s “military committee.” Linked to numerous terror plots, he is believed to have financed the first World Trade Center bombing, helped set up the courier system that resulted in the infamous Bali bombing, and cut off Danny Pearl’s head.

    A second was Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri, the head of al-Qaeda operations in the Persian Gulf. He allegedly played a role in the 2000 millennium terror plots and was the mastermind behind the USS Cole attack that killed 17 Americans.

    The third was Abu Zubaydah, said to be al-Qaeda’s chief logistics operative and Osama bin Laden’s top man after Ayman al Zawahri. It is believed that Zubaydah essentially ran al-Qaeda’s terror camps and recruitment operations. After he was waterboarded, Zubaydah reportedly offered intelligence officers a treasure trove of critical information. He was waterboarded just six months after the 9/11 attacks and while the anthrax scare was still ongoing.

    John Kiriakou, a former CIA officer who witnessed the interrogation, told ABC’s Brian Ross: “The threat information that he provided disrupted a number of attacks, maybe dozens of attacks.”

    He divulged, according to Kiriakou, “al-Qaeda’s leadership structure” and identified high-level terrorists the CIA didn’t know much, if anything, about. It’s been suggested that Zubaydah and al-Nashiri’s confessions in turn led to the capture of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.

    And that’s it. Less than five minutes, three awful men, five years ago.

    (We don’t know how long, exactly, each was waterboarded, but reports suggest that Zubaydah lasted between 30 and 35 seconds, and Khalid Sheik Mohammed lasted the longest — between 90 seconds and three minutes.)

    The reason these facts are important is simple. For several years, human rights groups, the media, and partisan opponents of the Bush administration and the war on terror have tried to portray the U.S. as a “torture state” that has completely abdicated its decency, its principles, and even its soul under the leadership of a president who believes in an ominous-sounding “unitary executive” branch. We’ve been barreling down a “slippery slope,” making America indistinguishable from Hitler’s Germany and Stalin’s Russia.

    Yet none of these interrogations were the result of a “rogue” CIA or the mad whims of a “torture presidency.” The relevant Democratic congressional leadership for intelligence — including current House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, Sen. Jay Rockefeller, and former Sen. Bob Graham — were briefed on CIA operations more than once. “Among those being briefed, there was a pretty full understanding of what the CIA was doing,” Porter Goss, who chaired the House Intelligence Committee from 1997 to 2004 before becoming CIA director, told the Washington Post. “And the reaction in the room was not just approval, but encouragement.”

    As for the slippery-slope caterwauling, the opposite is true. The slope toward more torture and abuse has gone up, not down, and it is today more difficult to climb than ever. According to existing law and Justice Department rulings, the practice has been proscribed for several years now — except, that is, for the thousands of U.S. servicemen who’ve been subjected to it by the U.S. military as part of their training.

    The current debate over legislation to ban waterboarding in all circumstances stinks of political opportunism. Democrats want to claim that Republicans are “pro-torture” if they vote against the legislation. Others are hoping to advance criminal prosecutions of CIA operatives who used the techniques sparingly and with approval from both the White House and Congress, and from both parties.

    I don’t like waterboarding, and I hope we never use it again. I have respect for those who believe it should be banned in all circumstances. But I do not weep that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed spent somewhere between .03 and .06 seconds feeling like he was drowning for every person he allegedly helped murder on 9/11.

    Then again, I think it would be horrific if we used that logic to justify waterboarding. It’s not a technique that should be used for punishment. Nor do I think that evidence obtained from forced confessions should be used in trial. Those are paving stones on the road to a torture state.

    But, given the circumstances at the time, I think the decision to waterboard these three men was right and certainly defensible.

    The editors of USA Today disagree. They say that the decision to use waterboarding “was understandable in the frenzied aftermath of the 9/11 and anthrax attacks. What’s inexplicable, however, is why, after having several years to assess the matter deliberately, the Bush administration continues to resist efforts to ban waterboarding.”

    It’s only inexplicable if you think we’ll never have a “frenzied” moment like that again. Let’s hope.

    http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MjM2ZDRlOWY4OTdjMWFiNjZlYWUwZmNiYjRjNGQwZDM
     
  2. DonnyMost

    DonnyMost be kind. be brave.
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    Dude only lasted 30 seconds?

    p*ssy.
     
  3. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

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    The obvious question then - and the one that Jonah Goldberg can't answer - is that if it is almost NEVER used, then why not just ban it going forward?

    The argumetn that "Look, it never happens!" doesn't mesh with "we MUST do it!" Jorge, cons - get your story straight.
     
  4. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

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    Cutter: Remember when I told you about the drowning sailor?
    Rupert Angier: Yes, he said it was like going home.
    Cutter: I lied. He said it was agony.
     
  5. El_Conquistador

    El_Conquistador King of the D&D, The Legend, #1 Ranking
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    That's why we reserve the right to use it.
     
  6. basso

    basso Contributing Member
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    the obvious answer is it proved valuable then, and the threat of it, much like a steve novak three, is valuable even if it's employed only rarely.
     
  7. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

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    ^this presupposes there was no other way to get actionable intelligence - further it generally ascribes intelligence gathered from KSM by other means to the torture.

    REBUTTAL FAILURE

    You are arguing that waterboarding is unnecessary in this thread. I agree with you.
     
  8. El_Conquistador

    El_Conquistador King of the D&D, The Legend, #1 Ranking
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    Sam, let's look at the facts here:

    1) Waterboarding is used sparingly (5 minutes in 5 years)
    2) CIA officials cite tangible benefits to its use
    3) Only the worst of the worst are waterboarded
    4) The waterboarding is used only to extract life-saving information regarding terrorist plots

    Why remove a useful tool that has a history of providing successful results? Why remove that? Why cripple your own efforts to fight terrorism? There simply is no good answer for that Sam, which is where your position fails the test.
     
  9. mc mark

    mc mark Contributing Member

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    Americans don't torture
     
  10. gifford1967

    gifford1967 Contributing Member
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    Is it ok with tj and basso if american soldiers get waterboarded?

    If their answer is yes, then they can make a case for the US using this interrogation method.

    If their answer is no, then they are hypocritical, moral relativizin' twits.

    I'm pretty sure we know the answer.
     
  11. rhadamanthus

    rhadamanthus Contributing Member

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    I predict they won't answer this question. POOF
     
  12. Rule0001

    Rule0001 Contributing Member

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    Can't we cut out the bull**** ethical reasons and look at actual facts on whether torture works on obtaining information?
     
  13. MadMax

    MadMax Contributing Member

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    bobsled


    ...................to



    ..........................................hell
     
  14. mc mark

    mc mark Contributing Member

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  15. El_Conquistador

    El_Conquistador King of the D&D, The Legend, #1 Ranking
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    Max, your 'bobsled to hell' reference suggests that you haven't read the article. Read the article please. You will find that the Administration has exercised total restraint in using the technique over the past 5 years. That invalidates your point.
     
  16. gifford1967

    gifford1967 Contributing Member
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    Hey I bet if you got the terrorists' wives and daughters in the room and started raping them one by one, you'd get some actionable intelligence pretty damn quick. Let's cut out the bull**** ethical considerations.
     
  17. mc mark

    mc mark Contributing Member

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    Stay tuned to see if TJ answers gifford's question....
     
  18. Buck Turgidson

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    Given how American POWs & hostages have been treated in the past few decades (generally by everyone but the Nazis, ironically), yeah, I'd think waterboarding & a cell at Guantanamo would be preferable.

    I have much, much less of a problem with the sparse use of waterboarding in critically urgent situations (the only time it should be used, and the reason the US should retain the legal right to do so) than I do with us handing over people to other nations with incredibly harsh interrogation practices.
     
  19. MadMax

    MadMax Contributing Member

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    my post was in response to one who suggested ethical considerations of how we treat other human beings was "bull****."

    that invalidates your point.
     
  20. El_Conquistador

    El_Conquistador King of the D&D, The Legend, #1 Ranking
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    In case you missed it, MUCH WORSE is happening to American soldiers. Have you read about what John McCain endured in Vietnam? Heck, have you read about what's happening with civilians? Daniel Berg ring a bell? They can literally saw an American's head off, yet we can not simulate drowning? Get real. So your comparison is a false comparison.
     

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