1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Watch episode 4 of Last Dance

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by JW86, Apr 27, 2020.

  1. JW86

    JW86 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2016
    Messages:
    4,711
    Likes Received:
    5,866
    I know a lot of people here do not want to hear this, but I'm going to go ahead and say this:

    In episode 4 of the Last Dance documentary - yes the MJ and Bulls one - they talk about coaching, the triangle, coach Collins focus on getting MJ the ball, which made him such a dominant scorer and the type of numbers that pop up when Harden does something special, yet it was under Phil that the team started winning more. It's really funny when you watch that part, if you're honest with yourself, you cannot help but think "ow man, this is just what the Rockets have done with Harden, just make everything about him that allowed him to be this great scorer."

    And it's not like it was a mistake, Bulls went to the freaking ECF and lost to the champs. Then they fired Collins and went with Phil. Sound familiar? Now while MDA is different from McHale, he's been solid, but I truly believe if Morey followed this and took a chance on an assistant who has the right vision to get the team more involved, we could become champs too. We're still very Harden and iso heavy, just as Collins' Bulls were and they speak on that.

    The opponents knew it was going to be in MJ's hands just like with Harden now which made it easier to defend. Phil wanted to make the role players more important and raise their game. That's exactly what I think needs to happen here. We didn't necessarily need change before with a roster consisting of Ariza, Luc, Tucker and CP3 next to Harden, but right now we do.

    Even if you disagree, I think this part and episode will speak to Rockets fans when seeing Harden's greatness and understanding that the difference between MJ and his rings was taking the chance on a new philosophy and coach. We did the same actually with Rudy T, though under different circumstances and not necessarily the iso to team ball part, but taking the chance on an assistant who allowed the star player to trust team mates more and rely on them.
     
  2. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Easter Egg Hunter - Tell me why? نحن عائلة
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2006
    Messages:
    62,427
    Likes Received:
    21,874
    Triangle won Phil 11 ships.

    That is almost what the Celts or Lakers have in total.

    Tex Winter came up with it, Jackson learned and applied.

    Collins was a JVG, just rode Michael and neglected others.

    Phil could also control Worm.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tex_Winter
     
    #2 daywalker02, Apr 27, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2020
  3. riko

    riko Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2014
    Messages:
    7,222
    Likes Received:
    12,291
    The last few months was all Russ if anything. Harden was playing a secondary role to Russ and was doing it willingly
     
    D-rock, joshuaao, saleem and 2 others like this.
  4. mac_got_this

    mac_got_this Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2007
    Messages:
    4,871
    Likes Received:
    2,945
    Interesting about Tex Winter. Did nybody notice variations of the triangle offense when Ted coached the Rockets?
     
    D-rock and saleem like this.
  5. tinman

    tinman Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 1999
    Messages:
    73,483
    Likes Received:
    23,659
    @CometsWin

    So the Bulls fired Doug Collins for Phil Jackson and Michael Jordan won titles

    is this like?

    When the Spurs fired Bob Hill and Popovich won 5 titles afterwards?

    Is this like?

    Golden State fires Mark Jackson and Steve Kerr wins a bunch of titles?

    And so on and so on?


    Logic and Correlation = F
    @Zboy
     
    D-rock, bmd and hakeem94 like this.
  6. jim petersen84

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2019
    Messages:
    106
    Likes Received:
    126
    this thread should be in nba dish has nothing to do with houston rockets
     
    iJHolmes, Jontro and tinman like this.
  7. Tfor3

    Tfor3 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2007
    Messages:
    13,867
    Likes Received:
    9,688
    I like pie.
     
    tinman and Deckard like this.
  8. fryjol7

    fryjol7 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2014
    Messages:
    820
    Likes Received:
    847
    I read OP debating if a higher level of accountability and coaching leadership could elevate Harden into a legendary top 5 player?

    It was impossible not to feel the similarities at that moment, maybe only Rocket fans could, but, historic "Scorer that repeatedly bumps again historic team and could benefit from a coaching upgrade + higher performance from his teammates" sounds very similar to what we have.
     
  9. topfive

    topfive CF OG
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2002
    Messages:
    16,535
    Likes Received:
    30,213
    I kind of agree. The MDA system creates a high-variance monster that will make teams look really bad during those stretches when things are going right for us, but it leaves us absolutely vulnerable when the inevitable lull hits (0-27, anyone?). We have the starters and the depth now to play a more even-keeled style that will keep us from being steamrolled when we hit a bad spell.

    That said, at the end of this season (whenever that comes), Tilman will let MDA walk and give Morey a dollar-store budget with which to hire his replacement. Anyone who thinks we're going to pay top dollar to get a top coach is dreaming. Hopefully, Murray can find us a great coach who's desperate for an NBA job, and who the players will respect. That's a tall order, though.
     
  10. DaDakota

    DaDakota Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 1999
    Messages:
    109,507
    Likes Received:
    13,912
    Jordan played both ends relentlessly.

    DD
     
    daywalker02 and fattz like this.
  11. xiki

    xiki Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2002
    Messages:
    16,171
    Likes Received:
    1,711
    MJ played D relentlessly. Some times.
     
  12. JayZ750

    JayZ750 Contributing Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2000
    Messages:
    22,982
    Likes Received:
    8,260
    The year before Phil was hired, the Bulls players consisted of:

    MJ, Scottie in his 2nd year, Bill Cartwright, Horace Grant in his second year, Craig Hodges, Sam Vincent, John Paxson, Brad Sellers

    They made the ECF but lost in 6.

    The next year most importantly Scottie and Horace were in their 3rd year, they added Stacey King. BJ Armstrong and Will Perdue, and Phil was the coach. Better team, still lost in the ECF, this time in 7.

    The dynasty started the next year, with Scottie and Horace now seasoned pros .... with mostly that same group.

    I don't personally attribute it to Phil, to MJ scoring less, to the triangle, or to better players and depth. I attribute it to ALL of that. Could Doug Collins have won 6 titles in 8 years? I suspect not... but I also suspect he might have won 1 or 2 if the roster moves were the same.

    Relative to Phil, by the same token, absolutely Del Harris probably should have been let go after the lockout shortened 97/98 season when they got swept in the 2nd round by the Spurs. But Kobe was 20, and starting to try and be aggressive that year, to the detriment of Shaq's game - it was maybe Shaq's worst year as a pro until he started his decline in his 30s. Phil and the triangle absolutely helped, but so did Kobe's maturation and oddly enough the removal of Eddie Jones for the full year - great player, but they had Shaq, Kobe, Glen Rice and Eddie Jones... not enough shots, so Kobe's increase came at the expense of Shaq. Phil came, Kobe matured and got more shots, and Shaq ALSO got more shots.

    What's my meandering point?

    Well, objective one is the right roster. The Rockets have been VERY close, but CP3 got hurt, and there wasn't enough forward depth. Overall roster depth/balance I think has gotten worse since, though better at the top-end.

    I think DM is great, but at the end of the day, it's hard to look past the fact that they have 6 players and $95 million committed to the guard positions vs. 9 players and only just under of $31 million committed to the other 3 positions. Even with position-less, small-ball basketball, it doesn't matter if James gives you 35 a night and Russ gives you a triple double a night... one might still put them behind the Lakers and Clippers at a minimum, if not also the Bucks and Nuggets. I'm "fine" with all the moves he's made, given the hand he was dealt and ownership pressures... EXCEPT the extension of Gordon.

    At 30 years old, EG had a GREAT playoff last year, and you were presented with the option of extending him, or maximizing value and trading him, and I think the second option, especially for a player that had been injury prone, was the more obvious and better choice.

    Once the roster is set, you can make decisions if necessary on coaching. I don't think MDA is an all time great, but also think he's solid enough if the roster overall was better/more balanced. and whomever the coach is, I think James' scoring comes back down with a more balanced roster as well.

    More than his scoring, his ability to move off the ball and not gamble on defense are the bigger things to focus on with him, imo.
     
    D-rock and fryjol7 like this.
  13. prs325

    prs325 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2002
    Messages:
    782
    Likes Received:
    76
    We fired Don Chaney and replaced him with Rudy...
    Won 2 chips.

    Or, when we fired McHale, should we have promoted Nick Nurse? Hmmmm...

    So the logic then becomes should we we fire Mike Dan and Toni, and replace him with.... Matt Brase? HAHA...
     
    hakeem94 likes this.
  14. smoothie_king

    smoothie_king Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2007
    Messages:
    3,116
    Likes Received:
    540
    God speed to the nba and worldwide.

    I thought last dance could have focused on kukoc in game 7 in 1998 against pacers, ecf. Kukoc scored more points than pippen, and kukoc was the only bulls starter to make a freaking three pointer in game 7!!!!


    The month of March was danuel house! The Celtics overtime win was game of the month.

    It was house and Westbrook providing two monster dunks, a piece.
     
    daywalker02 likes this.
  15. Croatian Sensation

    Croatian Sensation I'd rather be a forest than a street

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2010
    Messages:
    667
    Likes Received:
    121
    Hire Kenny Atkinson then



    Yup, we Croatians are a bit mad for them completely ignoring Kukoč so far (while putting freaking Steve Kerr on all the ads :rolleyes:). Toni was the third wheel to MJ and Scottie and often stepped up in clutch moments. Could've done much more elsewhere, but sacrificed his numbers for titles. It's a sacrilege he's not in the HOF yet, his European and international career achievements are probably the best ever.
     
  16. Hippieloser

    Hippieloser Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2003
    Messages:
    7,908
    Likes Received:
    1,231
    This would be a great idea if we had Phil Jackson just waiting in the wings.
     
  17. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Easter Egg Hunter - Tell me why? نحن عائلة
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2006
    Messages:
    62,427
    Likes Received:
    21,874
    Not only that, he took matchups personally....... like the one, when a no name Labradford Smith scored 37 pts on the Bulls, Jordan took it personal, answerd with 47 pts in the next.

    https://ballislife.com/storytime-michael-jordan-labradford-smith/

    The man races you how fast you can run or drink water. Competitive in arguing a topic even.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/mic...e-of-the-most-famous-drafts-in-nba-history-22

     
    #17 daywalker02, Apr 29, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2020
  18. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Easter Egg Hunter - Tell me why? نحن عائلة
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2006
    Messages:
    62,427
    Likes Received:
    21,874
    I think people throw around the term 'greatness' nonchalantly.....

    Unless he backs it up with numerous results, he is just a very good GM, one with tons of untapped potential.

    Krause seems like a much more unlikable person but he got it done, he picked Michael and picked pretty well in follow up scenarios.

    You could say Daryl never got to pick in the real high stratosphere, but he did with Jeremy Lamb and then Mook over Kawhi in the 12th-14th pick range which could still produce stars if you knew where to look.

    Daryl always tried to follow the Spurs way of fostering international stars with lower picks but to no avail........
     
    #18 daywalker02, Apr 29, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2020
  19. Caesar

    Caesar Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2014
    Messages:
    4,199
    Likes Received:
    2,410
    Except MJ was great off the ball and highly active, a vocal leader that demanded greatness, and played elite defense. There's many winning systems MJ could be dropped right into. He could play for Pop or Pat Riley's showtime Lakers or Pat Rileys bully ball with the Knicks/Heat, etc. No doubt an influence from learning bball from Dean Smith- a total team bball head coach and the only reason MJ wasn't breaking college scoring records.

    Sure, he'd be vocal about not liking something, but all business once it was on the court. Doug had him play PG at the end of the 89 season and he was putting up 30+ pt triple doubles every game and setting records. MJ didn't like it and didn't want to play PG despite crazy numbers. He averaged a career high rpg and apg while maintaining elite defense and his 2nd most efficient fg% season. He could have easily averaged a triple double if he played pg most of the season instead of just the final 17 games of the season. Were talking Westbrook MVP numbers but with 50+FG% and 3spg/elite D and first since Oscar to avg a trip dub back in 1989.
    We also saw on The Last Dance how he initially wasn't on board with Phil as well.

    Harden on the other hand needs the ball in his hands and doesn't much care about defense most of the time and isn't much of a leader.

    MJ was never a dribble-dribble-dribble-dribble---iso player. So taking "the ball out of his hands" isn't as dramatic of a loss of him as a presence on the floor as it is for taking the ball out of Harden's hands.

    Moreyball and D'Antoni would both have to be fired and a new philosophy and staff would need to be implemented for not just Harden, but Westbrook too. 2 stars that have never shown a willingness to change. With the Capela trade and going all in on super small ball, we'd be looking at a 3 year minimum rebuild around this new staff and philosophy. Too late. No choice now but to ride this Moreyball til Harden's 34-35 years old.
     
    D-rock and JW86 like this.
  20. J.R.

    J.R. Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2008
    Messages:
    83,046
    Likes Received:
    86,443
    ”You know, to be honest,” Gordon says, “If we’re ever going to win something, we have to get to a point where everybody is having a good game pretty consistently, almost every night. To me, if you ever want to win a championship, all your top guys on the team have to do well. Like when you go in the playoffs and you have to have four to five guys playing well and everybody has to have a chance to be successful. And you know, it can’t be where two guys are playing very, very good and everyone else is still trying to find their way on the court. There has to be a system where we know what’s gonna possibly happen every single night. And with us, it just hasn’t been that way all season. There hasn’t been really one player that you can just say, ‘He’s having a great night almost every night.’ You know, consistency from a standpoint.”
     
    D-rock and JW86 like this.

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now