WashPost: The Confession of a Torturer

Sorry to come back to this, but I think another more reliable way to get the info would be to go through all of Atta's phone records, computer records, home, etc. Find the information there which would also lead to other members of the plot. Apprehend them and continue the cycle.

It seems far more reliable to get quality information that way than to torture. I think that this kind of thing can almost always be done, and that in real life there are just almost always more reliable and varied options than torture in order to stop a plot from occurring.

 

Then who is the one that's promoting the torturing? Who is the one doing the torturing? Who encourages them to do it? Why was the issue not addressed more forecefully after Abu Gharib? If it's not the military, who is promoting it?

No what I am saying and I have said all along is that this is pure public posturing on the part of the people responsible for teaching the future torturers. People will want to know, hey who taught these people these sick things, where did they get them from? It's obviously picked up and taught somewhere down the line.

To separate themselves from it by blaming it on TV is silly. To say an interrogator is getting his inspiration from a TV is just the age old 'blame the media' schtick that irresponsible parents use when trying to pass the buck. It's like a parent who blames their kid's spree on a video game. Unfortunately, you're just not getting it because of your silly idea that everything (9/11, the Iraq War, torture, the increased insurgency levels) is being orchestrated by the Bush Administration on behalf of their Haliburton masters.

facts don't change, but there can be more revelations abot certain events. confessions get recanted all the time. the whole truth is not always revealed. You as a conspiracy nut should knolw this.

 

I don't want to stay stuck on the 24 example but I'm laying out a situation where the attack is emminent. Everything you say makes sense and I agree that in the long run torture doesn't work and is self-defeating but if you've got a situation of a day or hours you might not have time to do any of the other information gathering things you mention. If you've got the person in custody I think the temptation to torture them to find out would be very hard to resist.

 

"do you have anger issues or something?"

the torture orders come from the bush administraion with methods outlined by alberto gonzales in his "torture memos", which basically voided the geneva convention. rumsfeld signed off on the memos. the pentagon hires civilian contractors who are the ones carrying out torture and instructing the troops to do so. the torture orders come from the highest levels of the government and military (pentagon), but that doesnt mean that "the military" is promoting torture. infact, experts within the military are soundly against it.

your comments show ignorance and a complete lack of understanding as to what is going in in iraq. it is all part of the larger issue of the bush administration "outsourcing" the war to private contractors. in some cases, we have military working at abu ghraib under the direction of civilian contractors like blackwater. you are obviously very dense, so let me spell it out...our military is taking orders from civilians. i dont know why i am bothering b/c you are obvioulsy not very smart, but check out these links (no, i did not look for "updates" - sorry)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1206725,00.html
Use of private contractors in Iraqi jail interrogations highlighted by inquiry into abuse of prisoners

In the report below we quote Gary Myers, a lawyer for one of the accused military policemen, as saying: "We know that CACI and Titan corporations have provided interrogators and that they have in fact conducted interrogations on behalf of the US and have interacted the military police guards at the prison."

Graphic photographs showing the torture and sexual abuse of Iraqi prisoners in a US-run prison outside Baghdad emerged yesterday from a military inquiry which has left six soldiers facing a possible court martial and a general under investigation.

The scandal has also brought to light the growing and largely unregulated role of private contractors in the interrogation of detainees.

According to lawyers for some of the soldiers, they claimed to be acting in part under the instruction of mercenary interrogators hired by the Pentagon.

The US army confirmed that the general in charge of Abu Ghraib jail is facing disciplinary measures and that six low-ranking soldiers have been charged with abusing and sexually humiliating detainees.

Lawyers for the soldiers argue they are being made scapegoats for a rogue military prison system in which mercenaries give orders without legal accountability.

A military report into the Abu Ghraib case - parts of which were made available to the Guardian - makes it clear that private contractors were supervising interrogations in the prison, which was notorious for torture and executions under Saddam Hussein.

One civilian contractor was accused of raping a young male prisoner but has not been charged because military law has no jurisdiction over him.

Hired guns from a wide array of private security firms are playing a central role in the US-led occupation of Iraq.

One of the soldiers, Staff Sgt Chip Frederick is accused of posing in a photograph sitting on top of a detainee, committing an indecent act and with assault for striking detainees - and ordering detainees to strike each other.

He told CBS: "We had no support, no training whatsoever. And I kept asking my chain of command for certain things ... like rules and regulations."

His lawyer, Gary Myers, told the Guardian that Sgt Frederick had not had the opportunity to read the Geneva Conventions before being put on guard duty, a task he was not trained to perform.

Mr Myers said the role of the private contractors in Abu Ghraib are central to the case.

"I think it creates a laissez faire environment that is completely inappropriate. If these individuals engaged in crimes against an Iraq national - who has jurisdiction over such a crime?", Mr Myers asked.

"It's insanity," said Robert Baer, a former CIA agent, who has examined the case, and is concerned about the private contractors' free-ranging role. "These are rank amateurs and there is no legally binding law on these guys as far as I could tell. Why did they let them in the prison?"

The Pentagon had no comment on the role of contractors at Abu Ghraib, saying that an inquiry was still in progress.

http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=10828
Two private military contractors are being investigated for their role in torture allegations at the Abu Ghraib prison, Iraq: CACI International, Inc. from Arlington, Virginia, and Titan of San Diego, California.

A total of four men -- Steven Stephanowicz, John Israel, Torin Nelson and Adel Nakhla -- are named in the report. All of them were assigned to work with the 205th Military Intelligence Brigade, a unit that is currently stationed in Germany and Italy in support of V Corps, under the command of Colonel Thomas Pappas.

Stephanowicz, a CACI interrogator, "[m]ade a false statement to the investigation team regarding the locations of his interrogations, the activities during his interrogations, and his knowledge of abuses." Further, investigators found, Stephanowicz encouraged Military Police to terrorize inmates, and "clearly knew his instructions equated to physical abuse."

Israel, apparently misled investigators, denying that he witnessed any misconduct. The report says that Israel should not even have been in the place because, he "[d]id not have a security clearance." (It's not clear whether Israel works for CACI or Titan but CACI officials have denied employing Israel.)

Nakhla was questioned about the treatment of several detainees accused of rape and quotes him as saying that two Army sergeants made the prisoners, who were naked, do "strange exercises" and then "started to stack them on top of each other" after handcuffing them and shackling their legs.

One civilian stands accused of raping a juvenile Iraqi inmate but the name of the civilian is not revealed in the report.

"In general, US civilian contract personnel (Titan Corporation, CACI, etc), third country nationals, and local contractors do not appear to be properly supervised within the detention facility at Abu Ghraib," military investigators concluded.

William Lawson, the uncle of Staff Sergeant Ivan "Chip" Frederick, one of the soldiers named in the report who is currently facing a court martial, told CorpWatch that his nephew told the family that the company employees were partially responsible for the abuses.

"He tried to complain and that he was told by superior officers to follow instructions from civilians, contract workers interrogating the Iraqi prisoners. They said go back down there. Do what the civilian contractors tell you to do and don't interfere with them and loosen these soldiers up for interrogation."

Lawson says that the company employees should be investigated and prosecuted if necessary. "I've spent 23 years in the military including time in Vietnam. I love this country but I will not allow my nephew to be used as a scapegoat," he said in a phone interview from his home in Newburg, West Virginia.

http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2004/08/09/abu_ghraib/index.html
The world's outrage over the abuse and torture of prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq has focused largely on the seven U.S. soldiers caught in the infamous photographs; they are now facing criminal charges. But several thousand pages of classified military documents reveal that private contractors, hired as interrogators at Abu Ghraib, played a key role in the abuses. According to the testimony of one detainee, a male contract worker carried out one of the most heinous crimes at the prison, raping a boy while a female soldier took pictures.

The use of civilian contractors is key to understanding Abu Ghraib. As the full Taguba report makes clear, private contractors held many sensitive positions at the prison. The wealth of classified documents suggests that once the administration decided to privatize military intelligence operations -- giving inexperienced contract workers nearly unlimited power over detainees -- with only a pretense of military oversight, the door to prisoner abuse was thrown open.

Among the individuals not qualified for sensitive interrogation positions at Abu Ghraib were many hired by CACI International, a Virginia company that provided intelligence services to the U.S. military, and Titan Corp., a San Diego company that supplied translators. According to an investigation released July 21 by the Armys inspector general, a third of contract interrogators at Abu Ghraib "had not received formal training in military interrogation techniques, policy, and doctrine."

The problem might not have been so serious if there had been only two or three contract workers on interrogation teams. But according to the Taguba report and an inside source, all 20 of the interpreters at Abu Ghraib worked for Titan. The classified documents contain an organizational chart that indicates that on Jan. 23, 2004, nearly half of all interrogators and analysts employed at Abu Ghraib were CACI employees.

The fact that the other half of the JIDC interrogators were active-duty military is not as reassuring as it may sound. Twelve of the 19 soldiers on interrogation teams at Abu Ghraib were at the bottom of the military ladder, specialists or privates first class. No one held a rank above sergeant. Military interrogations were conducted by inexperienced, low-ranking soldiers.

Army Spc. Luciana Spencer is a good example of the problem. A military interrogator, Spencer was cited in the Taguba report for forcing a detainee to strip and walk back to his cell naked, in an effort to humiliate him. In a still-classified sworn statement, she also admits to hearing other interrogators instructing the military police to abuse prisoners, and once witnessed Spc. Charles Graner slapping a detainee. Asked why she didn't report Graner, Spencer told investigators that she didn't know that what he had done constituted abuse.

Given their inexperience, Nelson says, interrogators were easily influenced about how to do their jobs. He characterizes many of them as "cowboys" who "try the tactics they see on really bad TV shows."

Nelson says some interrogators may have believed their "gray zone" tactics had at least the tacit approval of the highest levels of the military and government.

"You have tough-talking people [in the Bush administration], saying 'Bring 'em on' and 'The gloves have come off,' and 'These are the worst of the worst'," says Nelson, quoting, in turn, President George W. Bush, J. Cofer Black (the administration's coordinator of counterterrorism) and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld. "Then you get people who go into theater who listen to that and they feel fully justified to abuse prisoners."

The same problems applied to the interpreters, some of whom had little or no experience working as translators in any setting, let alone in the high-stakes wartime environment of Abu Ghraib. They heard the same inflammatory rhetoric and had little supervision or accountability, according to Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski, the former commander of the 800th Military Police Brigade, in charge of all military prisons in Iraq.
_________________________________________________________________

private contractors are torturing and even raping children, but getting away with it while a bunch of low-level privates take the fall for following their orders.

stop being so lazy and do your own research.

"do you have anger issues or something?"

once again, you know better than experts and those who have actually worked in interrogation, dont you? hotballa knows more about this issue than a general and dean of westpoint, fbi, military and cia interrogators who have actually been there...

in the salon link above you have thomas nelson who actually was hired by a contractor and worked over there saying "Given their inexperience, interrogators were easily influenced about how to do their jobs." He characterizes many of them as "cowboys" who "try the tactics they see on really bad TV shows."

but again, i suppose you know better than someone who was actually there, dont you? stop being such a knucklehead!

 

so what you are saying is that interrogators are NOT getting inspriation to torture from a tv show, despite experts saying they are. you have stated that it is silly, despite the experts saying that is what is happening. you have stated that it is an insult to the troops to say as much, when that is what the experts are all saying. why would a general insult his troops?

but again, you know better than all the experts, dont you?

 

You're all over the place. Make up your mind, first it's a TV show that's inspiring the military personnel to do the torture, the next moment it's private civilians who are directing them to do it. Seriously, make up your mind on which direction you want to come from. You're so desparate for any information that can cast the Bush administration in a bad light, that you pickup any article and try to argue its view even when they blatantly contradict.

no my comments show that I don't buy into your crazy idea that this is all part of a broad scheme that started with the gov't sponsored 9/11 attacks (you probably think it's organized by a coalition of Freemasons and other members of the New World Order) to the point where they are now actively inciting insurgencies so that private corporations can gain a foothold over there in Iraq. Anyone who holds a counterview to this is immediately branded an idiot, or someone with their head stuck in the sand.

That's just a stupid thing to say. Where in your articles does it mention it at all?

I dunno, to save his own hide? Let's see who we can blame before they start looking at us. maybe Bush overstepped the chain of command and ordered it, no wait, maybe the privtae contractors ordered the military to do it, no wait, maybe it was the media! yes damn it, it was the media! Meanwhile, you seem to believe all 3. ah I love consipracy nuts, no such thing as coincidences. Hey if you get a parking ticket tomorrow right after you bad mouth the admin, you'll know what's up.

I'm trying to have a discourse with you. If you're not happy with my opinion, you're welcome to stop replying. it would be appreciated if you can keep it somewhat civil.

You are aware that your attitude is the same kind of attitude that Bush is known for when it coms to dealing with people who don't agree with him.

 

try actually reading my post and all the info before responding to it next time - it makes you come off more ignorant than you already do. it is a fact that the bush administration authorized torture - it is a fact that civilian contractors are carrying it out and instructing a bunch of untrained troops to do the same - it is a fact that experts in the field of interrogation (who i assume know more than you about it) claim that shows like '24' are having a negative effect. what is so hard to understand about that? you have got to be one of the biggest morons on this board. its just funny at this point.

no, your comments show that you think experts in the field of interrogation like generals, deans of west point, cia, fbi and military interrogators, many of whom were actually at abu ghraib are wrong when they say that shows like '24' are having a negative effect. but again, you do know more than them, dont you?

pure strawman...where have i said anything like that? do you have a link? do a search thru my posts if you want. - try sticking to the facts at hand.

more strawman arguments - try sticking to the facts at hand. it might help if you actually READ the articles i posted.

try actually reading the articles i posted moron - i dont know why i bother b/c i doubt you will actually read it, but its in the guardian article (the first one i posted).

you do have a history of reading comprehension issues - in the vaccine thread you said that "only liberals" are opposed to it when the main article posted detailed how it is in fact, conservative and religious groups who are the ones opposed.

why would the westpoint dean try to save his hide? why would interrogation experts who were not involved in there and are not part of the military be trying to save their hide? they werent involved in the abuses? seems like the people coming forward want whats best for the troops and the military. they dont like seeing torture being carried out as it degrades their efforts. i dont know why you cant understand that.

stop being such a whiney little baby. this is a public message board and if you post something i have the right to respond to it or not. you seem to be the one chasing me around and arguing w/ me just for the sake of arguing, but you dont see me crying about it like you are. in the face of indisputable factual evidence you continue to argue to the contrary. if you want to do that, thats your buisness - just dont get your panties in a wad when i call you out on all the stupid stuff you say.

and what is so "civil" about calling others 'r****ded' as you have done in this very thread?

i guess i just dont have alot of patience when it comes to morons. its not my problem if you dont agree with the facts at hand and the opinions of the experts.

 

So again, you say that private contractors are teaching soldiers to do it, but I thought the soldiers got it from watching TV? Like I said before, please pick a position and stick to it. You're all over the place as usual.

Actually, it's quite amusing reading your posts to see how many sentences you can go without calling someone a name or making some crazy statement about the depths of a vast conspiracy. Maybe I am a moron, but I'll admit that any day of the week rather than make assertions that the gov't is behind 9/11 or that the gov't is purposefully inciting insurgencies through the use of torture (whereever they learned it from, probably the Media) because the violence allows the evil corporations to gain a foothold in Iraq and make more money there.

I thought that private contractors were responsible for teaching the torture techniques? You keep jumping back and forth on this. Once you make up your mind, maybe we can go from there.

well, as you pointed out earlier yourself on another thread, when a person uses the word "think", it probably is an opinion. I specifically used the words "probably think". You're merely arguing this for the sake of arguing.

lol. Below are your beliefs about the insurgency and your opinion of anyone who doesn't agree with said belief.

It says young male, that does not mean it is a child. thank you for the moron quip though. I was beginning to get worried after two sentences from you without an insult

your reading comprehension is even worse. The liberals I was referring to was the posters in the thread.

because, don't you think people will start questioning, at what point did these fine young men and women decide to start using torture tactics? what if someone started sniffing around West Point? These statements are strictly a P.R. move intended to head off the inevitable investigative report.

classic stuff. what a public message board does give you the right to is argue with anyone who posts something. a public message board doesn't give you the right to hide behind a computer and hurling insults left and right. again, it would be appreciated if you turned it down a notch on the personal insults.

your "factual evidence" contradicts each other. is it TV that these soldiers get their torture ideas from? is it private contractors? make up your mind.

ah classy as usual.

Then I strongly advise you to rethink this whole Internets thing. Afterall most of us on here aren't as smart as you are. We're actually gullible enough to NOT believe the gov't was behind 9/11. I mean, what kind of nincompoops don't know that?

 

delete

 

you know what, this getting ridiculous. I know you will want to respond to my post, so go ahead and do it. I will not reply back, this is nothing more than two people letting our personal issues get ahead of ourselves.

Have your say, and let's let it be. I don't mind you having the final word if it will ease the escalation of words. Just don't call me a poopoo head. I might have to respond to that

 

moron - the articles i posted provide factual evidence that private contractors are teaching soldiers to do it. the articles i posted provide factual evidence that interrogation experts say that '24' is having a negative effect. is it really that hard for you to understand?

moron, please stick to the facts at hand. im not talking about any "vast conspiracy". i am talking about the undisputable facts at hand which you continue to deny and ignore.

moron, per the 3 articles posted, it is a fact that private contractors are teaching torture techniques to our troops.

moron, i know it is hard for you to understand, but generally when people offer their opinions they have real factual evidence or logic to back it up. so where is the factual evidence that i think freemasons carried out 9/11?

moron, read the article. i dont know about you, but to me someone in their "mid teens" is still a child. what is wrong with you?

like who? i am against forced vaccines - am i a liberal?

moron, are you now trying to say that the torture was authorized thru west point? are you actually saying that the dean of west point is trying to head off a pr disaster heading his way? or that interrogation experts who werent even involved w/ abu ghraib are trying to cover their asses for something they werent even involved with?

stop being such a whiney little baby.

where is the contradiction moron? it is a fact that private contractors are instructing our troops on torture. it is a fact that interrogation experts say that '24' is having a negative effect. stop being such a moron.

i dont claim to be smarter than anyone other than you moron.

try sticking to the facts at hand moron.

 

I apologize to everyone who had to read this ugly escalation of words. Perhaps I'm not prepared to deal with presenting my views in a manner that does not anger other people. I'll avoid D&D for a bit and get back to posting about basketball and why Jessica Alba is not hot. I'll be back, if I don't get banned from D&D =P

 

http://thinkprogress.org/2007/02/28/army-torture-24/

Former Army Specialist: U.S. Troops ‘Turn To TV And Movies’ For Torture Techniques

The television show 24 has become a foreign policy guide for the right wing. Numerous conservative pundits have cited 24 as a sanction for harsh interrogation practices. In September, Laura Ingraham stated, “The average American out there loves the show 24. … In my mind that’s close to a national referendum that it’s OK to use tough tactics against high-level Al Qaeda operatives as we’re going to get.”

Brigadier General Patrick Finnegan recently told the 24 producers that he was concerned that the show’s promotion of illegal torture “was having a damaging effect on young troops.” In a new interview with Newsweek, former U.S. Army specialist Tony Lagouranis, who left the military with an honorable discharge in 2005, confirms Finnegans fears — that U.S. soldiers did take cues from 24 to torture prisoners:

Interrogators didn’t have guidance from the military on what to do because we were told that the Geneva Conventions didn’t apply any more. So our training was obsolete, and we were encouraged to be creative. We turned to television and movies to look for ways of interrogating. I can say that I saw that with myself, also. I would adopt the posture of the television or movie interrogator, thinking that establishing that simple power arrangement, establishing absolute power over the detainee, would force him to break. …

[We adopted mock] executions and mock electrocution, stress positions, isolation, hypothermia. Threatening to execute family members or rape detainees’ wives and things like that.

Lagouranis has teamed up with Human Rights First to advocate against torture, noting that what is seen on 24 “is not an effective technique for gaining intelligence.” Kiefer Sutherland, the actor who stars as Jack Bauer, has also said that the torture techniques employed in the show are not effective ways to get information in real life. He recently agreed to speak with cadets at the West Point military academy to teach them that torture is wrong.