Sorry to pull a Hayes on you but true there was a conflict going on, as I acknowledged, but that wasn't the First Arab Israeli war as Israel didn't yet exist when Deir Yassin happened. Either way though your statement that Jews didn't drive Arabs out of their homes prior to 1948, even leaving aside Deir Yassin, isn't true as they had been fighting between Zionists and Arabs going back to the 1920's. Again though to be fair many Jews were also killed and lost their homes during those times.
that's fine, and I don't want to get into an argument about something stupid, so I apologize. If it was analogous in the GARM, it would have been pointed out, but if you think it deserved its own unique thread, that's fine. sorry.
Two can play the Hayes game. I said 'the war'. Arab-Israeli war was never specified. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947–1948_Civil_War_in_Palestine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestine_war
By causing directly or indirectly innocent people, including children, to die in an "urban warfare" is no "dying with honor". I certainly wouldn't consider random killing of civilians by rockets or suicide bombings as heroic acts of war either. Bin laden certainly would agree with you, but I doubt Patrick Henry would.
I don't think PH would think too much of rocket attacks on civilians and then subjecting his own civilians to an onslaught while he cowered in a tunnel. Nice try. Undoutably their calculus is different than mine. That doesn't mean it isn't stupid. And whether they are a 'rational actor' is up for dispute. You don't have to apologize for being precise in your argument. Shame it's not a more admired trait.
Would firebombing or nuking civillians as the Allies did in WWII be considered honorable? Would gassing men in fox holes like in WWI be honorable? I think the argument to say that what Hamas is doing is dishonorable while we are heroic is problematic when looking at the history of warfare. The Allies very well knew that firebombing Dresden would cause massive civillian casualties. they knew that when they did so the Germans air defense was shot so they couldn't fight back. Same with Japan in WWII. The argument that such heavy bombing was done to save lives might be true but how is that honorable? Genghis Khan deliberately tortured the leaders of conquered cities in public and defiled their religious institutions with the understanding that the population would be cowed which would end up saving Mongol lives. In regard to the American Revolutionaries remember that many of the Continental Militia were considered cowards by the British since they would hide behind trees rather than come out and face the British in the open.
Refuse a democratically elected government and try to over throw it by building a fence against the people, block the entry to medicine, food, clean water for more than 2 years, bomb them with no evacuation site and destroy electricity plants and contaminate drinking water, bomb ambulances and restrict news reporters from going into the area. THIS my friend fits and exceeds the definition.
The correct term is "Hayesian Debate". It is also permissable to refer to the "Hayesian Book O' D&D Tactics".
I guess if you have to DELIBERATELY wait at a checkpoint for hours everyday going in/out of your home and get the soldiers to go invade your home as they please, who wouldn't sell at that point, but the real question is IS THIS FAIR?
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/8kzgXSOkx50&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/8kzgXSOkx50&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object> How wouldn't you move if you see this?
You don't think the Arabs were doing that and worse to Jews in the 1920's and 1930's? You do realize that this is what we are talking about right? Did the Jews do anything on the scale of the Palestinian Arab Revolt? Was that fair?
I'm sure you can if you look hard enough find examples that contradict me. But for the most part, based on everything I've read, yes. For instance, there was no giant rush of Jews to move right in to Deir Yassin after the massacre, was there? As I understand it, the Jewish immigrants purchased land and built settlements that were almost little Kibbutz. The Arabs, too, were huddled together in little fort-like settlements since there wasn't really great security for anybody. No Jews at the time were going to move into an Arab community after 1/2 of the Arabs were scared off by Jewish terrorists. That would be suicidal. And without central order there was no way for either side to systematically clean out and move the dissimilar people (which is why they were relying on terror in the first place). Later on, once there was a central Israeli government with central Israeli power it happened more reliably, because central authority allowed a persistence of action and purpose, in the way that government planing does.
I think you are trying too hard to find a way not to be wrong. As I said before I am part Jewish, and my father actually met Ben-Gurion once, and told me he was a brilliant but a stubborn man (my father would know since he is a brilliant man himself). I thought this was appropriate to post here from one of the architects of the state of Israel
That is really the one thing that annoys me the most. Look, I am part Jewish and support Israel's right to exist and defend itself, but I am also realistic and as a staunch secularist do not think that we (Jewish people) have the moral high ground in the struggle against our cousins (Arabic people), nor am I emotionally tied to Israel in the way many Jews are especially in America. Israel became a historical necessity that one day will be outdated, especially as secular humanist values grow to dominate the global culture. I am a student of history and see politics as nothing more than a power struggle. I realize the only reason Israel exists today is because it is more powerful than its enemies. I also realize that at any moment the scales can tip the other way, and if the Arabs (all 400 million of them) ever decide to get their act together Israel will be in deep ****. It the Arabs could have the patience to wait nearly a century to come back and destroy the Crusader armies of Europe and kick them out of Jerusalem, they can do the same to Israel. You will say nukes but well nukes mean nothing if you are invaded and occupied, and considering that Arabs and Iran will probably have nukes soon I do not think that will be a huge deterrent in the very near future. This is also why America chooses to arm Israel up to its teeths, because honestly Israel will have to do its own fighting. We won't fight the entire world on its behalf, Zionist lobby or no Zionist lobby. With declining American power and rising military superpowers to the East, we won't be able to "hold them off" for much longer diplomatically or militarily, so it will all come down to how powerful Israel is relative to its Arab neighbors. This will be somewhat similar to the situation with Taiwan and China, if China really wants to make a grab for it in a few years you can bet your ass we will do little more than throw a hissy fit about it. Obviously the Arabs are no China now, but collectively they have the resources, smarts, animosity and unforgetfulness (is that a word) that will one day make them agaain a force to be reckoned with. If I was the Arab world, I would do nothing more than modernize my military and just wait it out. That is what scares Israel, they almost know that there is a ticking bomb that is coming and all they can do is delay it. This is why Israel is a paranoid state, and they will only get more paranoid as time keeps ticking. But please spare me the moral hypocrisy, every nation in history of the world has done and gone through unspeakable evil (if you believe in evil) to get where they are today. The weaker side has ALWAYS used terrorism, and in some cases the strong states also used terrorism to eliminate or subjugate its enemies. States were created through war, and will continue to be defined by war. American was created by revolutionaries many of whom were terrorists in the modern definition of the word. Israel was created by revolutionaries many of whom were terrorists as well. And one day, Palestine will be created by revolutionaries like Hamas and the PLO before them who are or were terrorists. Peace can also be created by those who one day were called terrorists. Not all terrorists are equal, very few are nihilists and most are politically astute and can be reasoned with, however extreme there positions are.
Ari I respect your fair judgement to everything happening in the middle east. I do not think that this has to end with a war to eliminate the Jewish State I think if the middle east was to live without borders, Israel would just be a neighborhood in the middle of several Arabic neighborhoods, just like it was back in the old days and everyone would live side by side with no problems. The dilemma is to convince the Presidents in that region to release their powers and to let go of the people and let them live. Most of the leaders in that region are in power because they are striking fear in the people's lives from the Monster called Israel.
It is too late for that now, there is 60 plus years of animosity and the desire for vengeance is too great. And Israelis will never accept living as a minority again among Arabs, you do not let go of power once you get it, you fight to the death or surrender and it gets taken away from you. It is wishful thinking to believe that Palestinians won't go village to village and wipe out Jews if they ever got a chance to. It would be understandable even. That is why Israel has to remain a fortress. Are not the Christian freaks salivating over the idea of Jews being in one place so they can be wiped out or converted when Jesus returns?
