Great trade. The biggest need for the Rockets over the past few years was a premier perimeter defender. Now they've got one. The Rockets perimeter defense is second to none. They've got other needs, now, but a glaring one was filled. (And neither Rudy Gay nor Stromile Swift makes the Rockets better.) But a sane Mad Max was certainly a better "intangibles" guy than Battier.
So you're saying that the thought last year that the Rockets try to "win now" was foolish becuase the Rockets were already over the hill and need to be in a post-Yao/Tracy rebuilding phase? I have tried to figure out your posts this offeason and figure out where you're coming from, but I think they can be distilled to "everybody associated with the Rockets pretty much sucks, players coaches, whatever" That may in fact be true, but it obviously begs certain questions.
I don't buy into the notion that battier improves the defense more than gay. battier is a good team defender but he is average one on one. gay with his ability to play the passing lanes and block shots can be just as good as a help defender.
Perhaps it would go a long way toward increasing your level of understanding if you opened yourself up to opinions about Battier and VG that differ from yours? Here is the complete, unabrigded and condensed version... The Rockets were a playoff team with Swift/Gay or with Battier as long as Yao and McGrady are healthy. To build a team of totally one-dimensiona spotup shooting complimentary role players that can't get their own shot is/was absolutely the WRONG path to take given the physical histories of the 2 stars. That's it...clear as a sunny day. I think Rudy Gay and Swift was the better choice. It's an opinion. I know the Rockets roster as is with Battier can't compete with the WC elites. It's a fact. (And pul-leez...spare us all the 52 wins BS...they had the same WC record as LAL and GS and 1 more win than DEN...and the record with Yao injured was better than the record with him playing so they wouldn't have gotten to 60).
Bottom line is we were no better this year with Battier than we would have been with Gay and Swift and in two or three years we could have had our complimentary scorer, heck he's pretty good on some nights now, in Gay. Swift would have added depth for the remainder of his contract and was a decent NBA player though less spectacular than we had hoped. It was a dumb, short sighted trade that I hated then and still hate now.
I am open. I never said Battier was that great, and am ambivalent about the trade and generally have been, though I was initially very opposed. Probably right - hell I had given the team up for dead last December. HOwever it's alos apparent that a team that has two max salary players pretty much has no choice but to build around them and asssume that they will be healthy if if they want to win a title. If they want to build a "contingency squad" around them logic says they are lowering their ceiling. If that is the case then it is time to get rid of your stars. Which it might be. LOL, it's not 52 wins BS, it's 52 wins fact. I agree with you that the talent level of the Rockets is underwhelming vis a vis the rest of the league. I was ranting and raving about Howard and Alston being starters all last off season - however it's also plain to me (and it was in 2005) that this was a team that, for whatever reason, played greater than the sum of its parts. And for you to automatically assume that a healthy Yao would have been a net drag is frankly a bit much. You're not accounting for the transiton of working Yao bakc in to the scheme, or Yao's huge dropoff from MVP level to 2004 level, etc. Is a team with a healthy Yao all season, rather than basicaly two entirey different frontcourts given the compementary strengths of Hayes-Yao vs. Deke-Juwan (which you don't believe exist, but the numbers say they do), more cohesive than a team that has had to switch styles twice in midstream? I think so. Is their record different as a consequence? I also think so. Of course, if we're playing what if, let's recall that Battier was plan B. Plan A was Brandon Roy. Gay was never going to be a Rocket, so most likely you would be looking at trade down for Thabo Sefalosha + extra second round pick. Does Swift/Thabo compete with the WC elites? Probably not. I don't know why you tend to think I believe all is well in Rocketland and am wedded to the team as is/was. I thought last year and continue ot think the Rockets need more talent, both in their big guns and the supporting cast. As far as swapping Adelman for JVG, I think that move is lateral at best in terms of quality and sets you back as far as having to retool the team for a new style(which, IMO, doesn't fit the players we have, including some of the important ones).
How can anyone say Battier is the best intagible guy in rockets history when we had Bob "I'm going for my seventh ring" Horry, Sam "I make all-stars into MVP candidates" Cassell, and Mario "I b**** slapped my old team by winning a championship" Elie on our teams. You guys are fools.
I wish there was a way that we could have both rudy and shane. I don't think we should have traded stro also. that was a dumb move. We could have used Rudy Gays scoring ability in the playoffs instead of battiers inconsistant play on offense.
And we probably will continue for years to come -- especially as Rudy Gay becomes a star -- just as in the case of Rashard Lewis. What if, what if....what a stupid trade!
Fair enough. Get rid of the poll. My main reason for bringing this topic up wasn't to trash Battier, or JVG. It was to: 1) Figure out where most of us stand on it and 2) b**** about not having another draft pick to sweeten the deal. I think that Battier was a good addition. We needed a tough minded defensive player, and lets be honest Gay would not have seen the floor as much as he did in Memphis. We would have probably picked up JJ Reddick or Ronnie Brewer instead. Gay wasn't a JVG kind of guy. I do think that Battier is a better intangibles guy than Maxwell, Cassell, or Elie, maybe not Horry.
Because that was the only option for folks who thought the trade was a good one. And at least two people mentioned the fact that the only good trade option in the poll carried a slant that made it unattractive to vote for.
This has been said many many many times, but it never seems to stick. The Rockets would NOT have drafted Rudy Gay. They said that if the trade did not happen, they would NOT have drafted Rudy Gay for themselves. They ONLY drafted Gay for Memphis because this is who Memphis drafted. They just essentially drafted the pick + Swift for Battier. The Rockets would've drafted someone else...
because that's irrelevant that's why people ignore it. as a matter of fact it makes them look dumber. they would not have drafted him isn't a defense especially since he's definitely out plyed the guy they would have drafted.
Its a defense when you're saying I'd rather have Gay than Battier. The reality is WE WOULD NOT have had Gay! End of story. You can say that it makes the Rockets look dumber, fine. But then you should compare having Battier versus having Thabo and Swift - because that is what we WOULD have had. So to determine if it was a bad trade you have to see what the alternative would be. Its far from irrelvant. I'd much rather have Battier than Swift and Thabo - period. (for that matter I'd rather have Battier than Swift and Gay - but to compare the trade versus something that would NOT have happened without the trade makes no sense!)
I usually agree with Gator on most stuff ... I'm not sure I have quite the frustration level he has. But, I don't think management has done a good job of building the team once they obtained Yao and TMac. TMac seemed to be like a huge gift dropped in our laps, due to Yao's dominating play when he went against the Magic. But, ever since, we've not done what it took to make upgrades. It's wierd. One transaction we did too much, and the next not enough. We gave Memphis too much for Battier, and then not enough to Mike James. IMHO, CD has been a mixed bag as a GM. He's got a great easygoing way about him, and has the respect of the other team's GMs. That goes a long way in making various trades happen. He's the consumate horse-trader. So, he really surprises me at times, when he doesn't do what it takes for various trades to happen. He's great at letting trades come to him, and patient. So, what I've finally realized, with how Les has treated JVG, is that Les is probably the one who has caused the problems, as well as CD's effort to please the coach. CD has over valued our players whenever one of our stars or coaches value them, and then has not included them in good trades. For awhile there, he was way overpaying everyone, but then quit that, and has sortof gone too far the other direction, probably due to pressure from Les. I think that Les draws the line often, when we could get a player, and Les kills the deal that CD offers him. So, I'm a little less down on CD, and more down on Les this off-season ... realizing his influence that has hurt our rebuilding. As far as Battier, I was very down on the trade. I figured he was a valuable piece of the puzzle, but felt we traded them way too much, and put ourselves in a talent deficit. Battier has turned out to be a better intangibles guy, better at defense, and great character guy, but I had hopes he could play PF, and that didn't work. Gay has turned out better than I expected too, while Swift has turned out worse. I thought we could have gotten their 1st round pick either last year, this or next, or traded Swift to someone who believed he had potential for someone we believed had potential. Perhaps we wouldn't have gotten anyone better than Snyder, and that was a gift that dropped in our laps, although didn't amount to anything. I liked the Battier addition, just not the trade, but felt it left us lighter on talent, making it a bad deal. Now if Bonzi, James, Snyder, Novak and VSpan had all turned out, then we probably would have felt it was worth it ... but, they didn't. Of course, who's to say that whomever we would have traded for would have been any better? JVG wanted Battier, I'm sure. But, he obviously didn't want Bonzi and VSpan, and did want James. In all fairness, if we'd have had James in the Jazz series, I believe we would have won. But, there was a problem behind the scenes, probably with Les leaking that JVG wouldn't be back, and so the team seemed dispirited, and didn't step up for the playoffs ... especially Head. The real issue, is what do we do now? Do we stay on the current building path with a new coach and system? This one doesn't seem to work, for whatever the reasons. I'm not even sure the Yao/TMac experiment works. As much as I love both players, Morey would have to look at TMac's trading value, and consider that as an option in building the team. Hopefully, he can get it done without that, but our trading chits have been squandered away, and he doesn't have that much to work with, unless Francis is giftwrapped by NY, and we've lost our NY connection. Unfortunately, I'm afraid we're down to more high-risk moves ...
According to NBA.com Rudy Gay PPG 10.8 RPG 4.5 APG 1.3 SPG .91 BPG .95 FG% .422 FT% .727 3P% .364 MPG 27.0 Shane Battier PPG 10.1 RPG 4.1 APG 2.1 SPG .96 BPG .73 FG% .446 FT% .779 3P% .421 MPG 36.4
a) you don't know who they would have drafted and b) just because they "said" they wouldn't have drafted him doesn't meand they couldn't draft him
who cares if they COULD'VE drafted him. All that matters is what would've happened but for the trade. You can't determine if the trade is good by comparing it to a situation that would never have happened. And If I don't know who they would've drafted - how do you? Since we're not sure who they would've drafted as you spoke of in point a, who were you referencing?!?
