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War Sucks! But you need War before you have Peace.

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout' started by ROCKET RICH NYC, Jan 20, 2002.

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  1. treeman

    treeman Member

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    cmrockfan:

    Do you really think that Arafat has no power?

    When he issues a last battlecry against Israel - and brings out his heavy weapons (Katyushas, antitank, and antiaircraft weapons the PNA/Fatah has been stockpiling) - and hundreds of people start dying on a daily basis, do you think that defines powerlessness?

    He is still the persona of the Palestinian cause. He still has the power to rally the Palestinians (and the Arab world, for that matter), even if he cannot control them.

    Hamas, Islamic Jihad, PFLP, DFLP, even Hizbollah - they will all rally against Israel when the shells start flying. And soon.

    When the Israelis overrun and occupy the Mount (and the Temple/Dome), it will be a sideshow. The fighting will have already begun.

    haven:

    I've been keeping quiet on your revisionist Vietnam history so far, but... The fighting did not start when the US got there. Might I remind you that the French were kicked out in '54? And that fighting had been ongoing since about '48? US involvement didn't become really noticeable until about '59 (although small numbers of US reps were there since '54). That leaves about 5 years of relative freedom from outside intervention, and the fighting was fierce.

    1954 was supposed to be the year that negotiations would bring about an end to the problem. Didn't work, did it?

    Peaceful reunification, my ass. That's a Communist's pipe dream, and an American Communist's dream at that. The NVA had something else in mind.

    The reunification in '75 was real peaceful, wasn't it?

    There's a reason we fought Communism for half a century. It is sad to see that it has won so many American hearts and minds, despite our efforts... And many don't even know that they've been won over. "Social justice" theory... Hah!
     
    #21 treeman, Jan 22, 2002
  2. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
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    treeman --

    As much as I'd like to back Israel 100%, I think you have to keep those comments in the context of what's going on. Was it yesterday that Israeli tanks were driving within feet of his home? I think -- irrepective of anything that'd come before -- to expect anything less from him insane.

    Whether there could have been a legitimate peace -- or at least a mediated ending of hostilities as with Egypt -- is moot. Too many of both the Israelis and various Arab constituents are fundementaly caught up in the paradigm that they've created for themselevs where they don't believe the two groups can coexist under any circumstances. Period.

    Re: your WWII example earlier -- when there is a sea change in the dominant forces -- as with the U.S. Fight Against Fascism<html>®</html> becoming the U.S. Fight Against Communism <html>®</html> -- the participants can be bought out and made to see the new paradigm as we did post war with Germany and Japan.

    The same effect can be seen in what was formerly a 'Socialist Populist Arab' movement shifting over to the 'Islamic Holy Jihad'. The same people who were socialists 20 years ago have been shunted by the fall of communism into becomming holy warriors. (I'm speaking of the broadbased grassroots support -- clearly on the more idealistic levels there is no shifting of alignment).

    The problem I see is that now for the Israelis, as with the Palestinians in the past and through to now, the primary leadership group is painting itself into a paradigm in which there can be no peace, and there can be no way to shunt off the forces which have come to a head.

    Clearly, I think the lesson of the second half of the 19th century and the first half of the 20th century is that building nations is a bad idea, no matter how good your intentions.
     
    #22 Ottomaton, Jan 22, 2002
  3. Sonny

    Sonny Member

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    1984...... :)
     
    #23 Sonny, Jan 22, 2002
  4. treeman

    treeman Member

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    Ottomaton:

    No, he's always been spouting that crap. But when the tanks finally appear on his doorstep - and he has nowhere to run - he says it in English. That was not a misspoke, nor was it an accident. I'm not sure you understand the significance of that difference.

    That message was meant for us.

    Only if the populations are made to shift paradigms/gears. The ideologies that prompted their aggressive action in the first place have had to be totally crushed.

    If the Israelis did so, they would be called racist oppressive pigs. For some odd reason, when Arabs do this (even to their own people), it is acceptable...

    Unfortunately, that is exactly what the Israelis have to do. It is the only long-term solution - breaking the Palestinians spirit for war, and replacing it with a desire to exist peacefully. They do not currently have that desire.

    Well that's all nice and revisionist, but it is totally untrue. You're saying that these people used to be secular socialists, but since they've lost their sponsor and the goodies it brought that they've turned into Islamic fundamentalists instead? C'mon...

    The fundamentalist element has always - always - been there.

    Iraq and Syria are the only 'socialist bastions'. Always have been, and still are for the most part. And that is only because they have killed hundreds of thousands of their own people over the past few decades.

    The fundamentalist reaction is very strong in the region. Always has been. Don't try to play it off as "well, they used to be socialists". Reality, here.

    Now this I agree with. Decades of being under attack might do that to you. Who do you think the Palestinians would rather deal with now, Barak or Sharon? Arafat has painted the Israelis into a corner. Don't be surprised if they step over the line and shoot the guy holding the paintbrush.
     
    #24 treeman, Jan 22, 2002
  5. dylan

    dylan Member

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    And there would have been peace if there were no civil war. But Lincoln would not allow that (not saying he was right or he was wrong) and demanded a violent solution when he could no obtain a peaceful way to get his particular solution. If Lincoln had not stated that he was going to attack the South to prevent them from seceeding (sp?) then the result would have been...Peace.

    You're making circular statements. In all conflicts there is one final battle that you can say blugeoned the loser into accepting peace. The previous battles in the conflict sure didn't lead to peace and understanding, though. The loser in a violent conflict also frequently carries much more animosity and bitterness that tends to create less peace in the future. Peaceful negotiations don't do that.

    Again, I ask how Ghandi and King Jr. accomplished their tasks without violence if you say that's just not possible?
     
    #25 dylan, Jan 22, 2002
  6. ROCKET RICH NYC

    ROCKET RICH NYC Member

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    Like we live in a peaceful society today? We have liberals in this country PROTESTING our treatment of the Taliban in Cuba. Meanwhile these are the same people that cut the hands of 14 year old children, killed women, and wants to see the same Liberal Americans Dead!

    I don't question the work that Ghandi and Dr. King has done. Without them, they wouldn't have inspired our society to another level. But in the end, as Da Dakota has said in a different post...
    The one with the bigger stick WINS!
     
    #26 ROCKET RICH NYC, Jan 22, 2002
  7. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
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    Lets talk about Israel's peace with Egypt. Long before this lasting peace was brokered, Egypt was as agressive towards Israel as Syria. It was at this time that a group in the military, which happened to include the current prime minister, began advocating a policy of military expansionism as the only way to ensure peace. It was in their mind a fact that peace with Egypt, Syria, or the Palestinians could never be accomplished without killing them.

    Fortunately, they this faction remained in the background, at least until after a peace with Egypt was brokered, or that peace would never have existed. The current government's policies will necessarily lead to an eventual war with nearly every Arab nation in the Middle East. Given that, and given the great strides toward a peacefull coexistance that the Israelis have made with a number of their neighbors, I don't see how advocating a massacre of the Palestinians can possibly serve the Israeli's best intrests in the long run.

    How long, after killing off all the Palestinians, do you think the Israeli's peace with Egypt, Jordan, and the like will last? How soon will Iraq and Syria and perhaps even the likes of Saudi Arabia feel the need to strike at Israel?

    In the grand picture, it only makes sence if you feel that the Israeli's will eventually be forced to fight a war with every Arab state in existance. History has proven that even the most intractable foe can become at least a peaceful, if beligerant, neighbor. I don't see, therefore, how you can advocate this position unless as an Israeli you just want to start a war with every Arab on the face of the Earth.
     
    #27 Ottomaton, Jan 22, 2002
  8. Ubiquitin

    Ubiquitin Member
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    :eek: Israel has just ****ed itself over....
     
    #28 Ubiquitin, Jan 22, 2002
  9. Jeff

    Jeff Clutch Crew

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    Logically, this isn't totally true. In war, as in love, it takes two to tango. Maybe a more appropriate way to say it would be:

    "As long as there are people out there who are willing to attack you and you are willing to retaliate, war will exist."

    I still find it fascinating that so many Christians are willing to ignore things that Jesus said just simply because "war is necessary." I really find that quite surprising and contradictory.
     
    #29 Jeff, Jan 22, 2002
  10. treeman

    treeman Member

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    Ottomaton:

    Do you think that Mubarak is going to live forever? In case you haven't noticed, Egypt happens to be #3 on the list (behind Saudi and Iran) where most of the globe's Islamic fundamentalists are coming from. If/when Mubarak falls/gets assassinated, Egypt will be right back to where it was pre-Camp David, except with a heavy fundamentalist slant.

    I personally see most Arab states about where Iran was 22 years ago: on the verge of fundamentalist revolutions. If (when) that happens, you can bet your ass that war with Israel will follow. It is inevitable, IMHO.

    As for the Palestinians, I am not talking about the Israelis having to wipe them out (didn't say that). I do think it will be necessary for the Israelis to completely conquer them, and then to "restructure their thinking process", much as we did to Germany and Japan. As it is, they are like children with AKs; they are clearly not going to stop attacking Israel, and they absolutely refuse to take an iota of blame for the conflict. Someone will have to make them stop, and that could take a generation of reeducation.

    If you think that there can ever be any peace while Israel is still under attack, then you are in for a big disappointment. The Arabs have two choices: restructure their own culture and thinking processes, or have someone else do it for them. I have zero faith that they will do it themselves.

    Jeff:

    Technically, you're correct. But of course, that "turn the other cheek" philosophy doesn't work in the real world. You see, most humans (and societies) have this little thing called a self-preservation instinct... Everyone fights back.

    Pacifism does not work. Unless you are suicidal...
     
    #30 treeman, Jan 22, 2002
  11. Jeff

    Jeff Clutch Crew

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    I totally understand the instinct of self-preservation. I'm not saying I wouldn't protect MYSELF. I'm not that enlightened. :)

    However, suggesting that pacifism doesn't work to people who believe that the best "life" is the one that comes after you die doesn't make any sense. That is the very reason Buddhists are pacifists. They believe that it is better to die peacefully and with honor than to continue the cause of violence in any way.

    Of course, like any other group of people, that's an ideal that not all of us can live up to, but I'd rather pursue peace as the FIRST course of action than continue the "you hit me, I hit you" mentality.
     
    #31 Jeff, Jan 22, 2002
  12. treeman

    treeman Member

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    That is your right to do so, Jeff. And believe it or not, a large part of me actually admires you for it. I've got an idealist trapped in here somewhere... :)

    But dead men can never again elucidate on their moral principles. And the victors will sweep them under the carpet of history. They will not be heard through the generations. China is doing an excellent job of squashing Buddhist thought right now... The Chicoms would be happier had not the Dalai escaped. He can still preach peace. He is alive.

    In my mind, the best route is to win the battle so that your principles can actually be passed on.

    It sux, but we live in a "You hit me, I'm gonna hit you back" kind of world. Se la vi.
     
    #32 treeman, Jan 22, 2002
  13. Jeff

    Jeff Clutch Crew

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    I don't think that is true at all. Jesus, Ghandi, Martin Luther King, Jr, Buddha, Mohammed, St. Francis...

    I could argue that these men (and many others) have had more of an impact on the world than ANY warlord, military general, political leader or monarch. History has not swept them under the carpet and they are heard loudly through the generations.
     
    #33 Jeff, Jan 23, 2002
  14. dylan

    dylan Member

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    Yeah, but people only care about him cause he's the patron saint of pets. That doesn't really count, does it? :)
     
    #34 dylan, Jan 23, 2002
  15. treeman

    treeman Member

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    These people had massive followings in their day, Jeff.

    It is also seldom pointed out that on the periphery of their movements, war was always in play. There was fighting going on in Jerusalem in Jesus' time. There was fighting going on in Mohammed's time (and he was a warlord). Malcom X was fairly popular when MLK made his "I have a dream" speech. Buddah/Ghandi - warfare between Muslims and Hindus has been a near-constant throughout SE Asian history (and quite a few Hindus were killed during Ghandi's time)...

    Do you really think that the simple message of "Let's just all get along" was what made the difference in these situations? I'm more inclined to think that it was more a threat of massive class/social/racial warfare that made the difference.

    It's all nice and dandy to think that the peace message was what brought about change in each of these instances. But the threat of warfare is what really changed the situations in every case.

    They are only remembered because we like to think that mankind has higher impulses beyond power and control. Reality never matches perception. Or hope.
     
    #35 treeman, Jan 23, 2002
  16. Jeff

    Jeff Clutch Crew

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    He did a little more than that...

    <i>Son of a rich cloth merchant. Misspent youth. Street brawler and some-time soldier. During an imprisonment in Perugia, he had a conversion experience, including a reported message from Christ calling him to leave this worldly life. Upon release, Francis began taking his religion seriously.

    He took the Gospels as the rule of his life, Jesus Christ as his literal example. He dressed in rough clothes, begged for his sustenance, and preached purity and peace. He visited hospitals, served the sick, preached in the streets, and took all men and women as siblings. He began to attract followers in 1209, and with Papal blessing, founded the Franciscans.

    In 1212 Clare of Assisi became his spiritual student, which led to the founding of the Poor Clares. Visited and preached to the Saracens. Composed songs and hymns to God and nature. Lived with animals, worked with his hands, cared for lepers, cleaned churches, and sent food to thieves. In 1221 he resigned direction of the Franciscans.

    While in meditation on Mount Alvernia in the Apennines in September 1224, Francis received the stigmata, which periodically bled during the remaining two years of his life. This miracle has a separate memorial on 17 September.</i>

    The reason I like him though is because of his famous "Prayer for Peace"

    <i>Lord, make me an instrument of your peace.
    Where there is hatred, let me sow love;
    where there is injury,pardon;
    where there is doubt, faith;
    where there is despair, hope;
    where there is darkness, light;
    and where there is sadness, joy.

    O Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek
    to be consoled as to console;
    to be understood as to understand;
    to be loved as to love.
    For it is in giving that we receive;
    it is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
    and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life. Amen</i>

    He was a hero.
     
    #36 Jeff, Jan 23, 2002
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