I'd love to have them both, Von had a nice season. But I wouldn't give Von a overinflated contract or even one that's to long. I'd rather clear Tracy out and let Von fight and or earn a few more minutes.
Von should do whatever is best for his career......I would love for him to be in Houston, but am happy for him if he gets a contract he desires. He has worked hard to prove himself as an NBA player, think of how many other players would have given up? Von stayed with it, got better and made himself an NBA player. He is far from a finished product, but at least now teams know they are going to get something out of him......on the offensive end. I wish him the best, either here in Houston, or wherever he signs. Luther Head, he was not. DD
anything but the knicks... well they are proven in the department of overpayment well would be fun watching wafer with their bunch of headless chickens what was that be smart and stick with a scrappy team like the rockets!
Nobody else finds this interesting? Question: If you're the worst offensive player in the NBA, and you aren't the best defensive player in the NBA, is it fair to call you a below-average player overall?
I find it very interesting Bob. No one is questioning his defense it is outstanding, but if he is now at the Ryan Bowen level of offense, is he now over valued? I don't know, but I like Battier a lot...but found your post very informative and interesting. DD
Ryan Bowen? I don't think Battier is that bad, at least he can shoot. He is overrated right now but he does give you his all every game.
The numbers are not interesting in the least bit. It is, however, interesting that Von Wafer could not beat out the alleged "worst offensive player in the NBA" for more than 19 minutes a game while Battier was dealing with an injury for much of the season. It is also interesting that an alleged "offensive minded" coach Adelman found it fit to play "the worst offensive player in the NBA" 34 minutes a game. It is interesting that the Rockets actually score more points per possession while said "worst offensive player in the NBA" is in the game than they do when he sits. It is interesting that alleged basketball fans think that a player did not shoot often means he hurts the offense. It is interest that alleged basketball fans seem to think that, when a player doesn't take a shot, the shot and possession simply disappears instead of being taken/used by another teammate. It is interesting that alleged basketball fans fail to consider things like "actually running the offense," "spacing the floor," "shot selection" and "moving the ball" which we've heard discussed over and over again. It is interesting you think others ought to think what you said is interesting. It is interesting you believe it so strongly you decided to quote yourself after the initial post was ignored.
Clearly he is not at Ryan Bowen's level and Battier does space the floor well for Yao, and he makes the right decision almost every time. I love the guy, but in all honesty, he could use a little more selfishness in his game....because he is capable of more on offense. DD
Yep, and those 19 minutes a game are inflated by those games he started when 2 of Battier/McGrady/Artest were injured. If people want to make the argument Battier is below average that's fine, just recognize that it means Wafer is a below below average NBA player when you say that.
Pleased to meet you, Mr. Herrera. You, sir, will get a cookie from me sometime in the near future. I assume you like nuts in your cookie...? Everything you mentioned is true. But here's the dynamic in a team sport like this that us "alleged" basketball fans miss. The game is played from possession to possession. It's always been assumed that you could figure out what a game will eventually look like by pouring over stat sheets and crunching numbers. And you can probably make a fairly educated guess as to how a game may play itself out, if all those variables hold true. What most of us will not realize until the exact moment it happens, is what happens when that one variable (player) has the decision to make(or in this case, the shot to take) that will throw all of those MIT stat geeks into catatonia. Short and sweet....when Battier does, as you mentioned, everything right (spacing the floor, good decision-making, moving the ball, etc.), but the play invariably may call for Battier to finish the play offensively himself. And when he doesn't or can't frequently enough he's actually done more to harm the team's offensive possession than we may notice. Until it's too late. You get the most out of a player like Shane Battier offensively when there are other guys on the floor with him who will compensate for Battier's lack of individual offensive production. Somebody's probably going to create a computer algorithm to prove something like this, Carl Herrera. But the game is more than just X's and O's. Or game savvy or smarts. Or toughness and guts. It's all those things, actually. But individual responsibility is probably highest on that list. Hockey's the only game I can draw a correlation from for how co-dependent teammates are on both sides of the ball (or puck). You have to play both offense and defense in basketball, Carl Herrera. I don't take stock in numbers myself. They give you a best-guess most of the time. But they don't tell you what a guy is going to do at any given moment in any specific situation. People say "McGrady lovers" get glazed over by Tracy McGrady's numbers, missing how he fades or disappears or quits at the worst possible times. Teams design their defenses knowing that more often than not, Battier won't finish an offensive possession himself. Teams don't gamble on percentages or game plans anywhere near as often as they gamble on a player being a player. Battier has missed too many opportunities in an offense that will get him open shots that he doesn't have to create (either under Jeff Van Gundy or Rick Adelman), and because opposition knows HOW Battier plays, they hope he doesn't take it upon himself to punish anybody for leaving him wide open. Battier actually does the same thing in his defensive preparations. He knows what guys are going to do. And he uses that knowledge against his opponents. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If Battier's role and contribution is going to be so specific, then he can't be on the floor an inordinate amount of time. Teams win and lose. And in a competition, any opponent will take any advantage you give them and beat your brains in with it. Battier, offensively, should finish what he starts....
Yeah... Battier's reluctance to shoot really kills the team. <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/HCccONZyl5E&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/HCccONZyl5E&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object> An of course... all the stories and theories in your post above are very convincing. You clearly know more than the Rockets front office and coaching staff. What are they thinking keep running him out there on the court?
He has a number of 4-5 points a game on the road including the playoffs. He is a better home player. The Rockets recognize his strengths but they know his limitations.
Battier actually had a higher scoring average and shot better from 3-point range on the road last season. I would say in the regular season, as a Rocket, his production at home and on the road has evened out. In the playoffs, he's shot lights out at home and struggled shooting the ball on the road. In 13 home playoffs games with the Rockets, he's shot 49% from the field, 47% from 3, and scored 11.6 ppg. He's got a sensational .698 TS%. On the road, again in 13 games, he's shot 35% from the field, 29% from 3, and scored only 6.6 ppg with a .493 TS%. I don't think its anything he's doing differently, though. He goes as the team goes. If he's getting good shots within the offense, I'm confident in him being able to hit them. Particularly in big games. The Rockets, as a team, have struggled to generate those good shots on the road in the postseason. Battier isn't going to create those shots himself ... he depends on working in concert with his teammates to get them.
Geez...as Rodney King might say, "Can't we all just get along"... Will, I'm a big fan, but why must you have one without the other? Sorry, I didn't read all the posts, but most, if not all of the championship teams over the last couple of decades had both... Michael Cooper (all D, no O - except for an occasional 3 pointer) and Byron Scott (all O, no D), Vinny (the Microwave) Johnson (instant O) and Dennis Rodman & Salley (only D), Ainge (great shooter) and DJ (great D), Kerr or B.J. Armstrong & Rodman, Hamilton (all O) & Wallace (Mr. D), Ginobli (O flopper) and Bowen (D flopper) - the list goes on and NONE of those players were the best players on their team. All were super role players and likely none of the teams would hame likely won a championships without them. Let's even take a step back and investigate our very own Houston Rockets - "Cassell (instant O) and Mario (yes, I remember the 3 vs. Phoenix -but, overall he was a defensive player), Kenny (no D) or Mario - 'Max played both sides of the ball better than just about anyone and is the exception' but Herrera was only D, while Bullard couldn't guard a parked car." Occasionally, you'll have an awesome player like Olajuwon, Jordan, Kareem, Kobe, Robinson or Shaq that can play both sides of the ball (that's why they are Superstars), but rarely are they role players (they are the Superstars), a la the players mentioned above (like Shane or Wafer - that are so lopsided O or D players, but are still important, nevertheless). IMHO, we need both, neither is more important, Wafer has his place as does Battier. Championship teams have both and need both as by examples mentioned above. Championship teams are rarely one sided. Personally, I appreciate Battier's work ethic and attitude MUCH more that I do Wafer's, (I remember how pissed I was when Wafer went to the locker room against the Lakers) but to say that one is more important than the other is foolish.
I know it's the team, but he is part of the team too. They all should take part of the blame for their anemic road performances. Everyone knows he can't create his own shot. The point I'm making is that people in general are likely to point out something wrong with certain players and can see nothing wrong with him. His positives outweigh his negatives, but he shouldn't have gotten a free ride when he got 3 points (33mins) in Game 2 and 4 points(42 mins) in Game 5 against Portland in the playoffs. Just want to make it clear,I'm not a Wafer fan. Battier is certainly better than him.
The coaching staff and GM keep running Battier out on the floor because he's a very good player, Carl Herrera. I'm sorry if I forgot to mention that. Being a very good player doesn't excuse you from your own weaknesses, though. Ask Tracy McGrady about that one. In spite of what it sounds like, I don't indict Battier. He does a lot of things to help a team win ballgames. And again, with his offensive contributions, it's not necessarily in his numbers. How many quality shots do you figure Shane Battier passes up during a game, Carl Herrera? 5? 10, tops, maybe? Whether it's Jeff Van Gundy's static offense or Rick Adelman's free-flowing one? Ideally, you'd look for a guy like Battier, in that offensive role he plays, to be a threat to score when he's open, Carl Herrera. That doesn't always mean he WILL score, but he WILL take the opportunity when it presents itself at a fairly consistent rate. Think about that for a second. Or a minute (some of us are faster than others). If a team knows a guy will not take an open shot very often, even when he's done his job and gotten to the exact spot to take that shot, what do you suppose happens to the rest of the court? It shrinks. Especially in relation to the guys who may have created the scoring opportunity in the first place. So, in Van Gundy's scheme, when Batiier didn't pose enough of a threat (even when he got out of McGrady and Yao's way, and the ball somehow made its way to him), the defense begins to dictate to you offense how the game will be played. Defenders that would probably hesitate to come off Battier and crowd McGrady's penetration ability, sag into the paint a little more often, taking away lanes to the basket and making McGrady more of a jumpshooter than a playmaker. people don't usually understand how most people defend Tracy McGrady. They defend him the same way the Rockets (Shane Battier in particular) defended Kobe Bryant in the playoffs. If the guys scores anything at all, it's going to be on jumpshots. Hhe's not getting into your defense for easy baskets for anybody, and he's not getting anybody into foul trouble. Depending on who you ask, McGrady doesn't need any help taking jumpshots, anyway. Or Yao Ming gets defenders in his lap on junk zone defenses, where he can't even get the ball in the post. Battier's where he's supposed to be, but nobody expects him to do anything, so nobody pays any attention to him. Battier's smart enough to know that's why he's on the floor, too. The question for me is if he's capable enough. Again, that depends on who you ask, but Von Wafer answered the question well enough, Carl Herrera. That's why I don't spend too much time slamming a player, once I get an idea of how the TEAM plans to generate offense. And in the NBA, the game comes down to one-on-one play, anyway, in the closing moments of the game. The defense should always be at the mercy of the offense in that situation. If a defense knows that there are guys who aren't going to score, most of the time, they'll be the one's with the shot. I don't care if Battier scores a bunch or not, himself. I do care that, in that role, nobody has been able to fill that requirement like Von Wafer has. That may have been by accident or injury or luck, but it happened. And that's what the Rockets have needed. Is Battier a better player than Wafer? No question. Does Battier do more to help your team win than Wafer? Of course. Is that enough if Battier plays the bulk of the minutes and doesn't score?
It's enough if he's the best option we have. It's not as if he's been keeping a better player off the floor, and it's not as if he's a FA atm where we're faced with a decision to resign him or get someone else. If you can upgrade through a trade, or Ariza and someone else outplays him for the wing spots then there'd be more to discuss.
mdrowe, that's what I've been saying for awhile now. Not only that, when u give up what the rox gave up to get him, u expect more. You're explanation is one of the main reasons why the fronting on yao works so well and the rox can't beat the jazz. The main reason why the rox couldn't lob to yao is because if yao is on the strongside triangle and shane is weakside, shanes man has his ffeet almost in the paint. Why? Since shane needs so much space for his shot and he's not a threat to put the ball on the floor, his defender can leave late and close out reckless. When they do that, it causes shane to make another pass even though the shot clock is under 5 seconds. The general rule is u don't pass the ball under 5 secs, but we see battier do it a lot. Utah doesn't front or double yao, but they tilt to tracy and just get physical with yao. They know where shane is because he doesn't move. They too close reckless because he's not a dribble drive threat. This is why the rockets have had a hard time scoring points in the playoffs. Its not all shanes fault, but his road performances and his inconsisistent production hurts the rockets. I have said time and time again, give me the rookie or the last yr in memphis shane and the rox wouldve been good. That guy would attack the rim,run the break,post up smaller guys, pump fake and move in for a mid range jimmy and bring the intangibles and defense. That's the guy we thought we were getting.
...And that's why, if you're paying attention, you go about the business of fielding a TEAM, saitou. A team can do a lot to cover up other player's weaknesses and mistakes. The Rockets have finally acquired some quality DEPTH, particularly at the wing position that both Battier and McGrady have played in the past. I've never been interested in anybody "outplaying" Battier or anybody else. I've been interested in balancing out the rest of the team, if your offensive focal points are going to be Yao Ming or Tracy McGrady. Battier is a very big part of what the Rockets do defensively. And, for the minutes he's been asked to play in the past, he's HAD to be a big part of what the Rockets do offensively. He hasn't done as well as needed. If more wasn't expected from Battier because coaches and GMs know players better than fans do, that's all the more reason why you get someone to play the spot to offer what Battier can't or doesn't—offensive firepower. You split the difference, in my opinion, saitou, between Battier and Von Wafer. I think there's more than enough minutes to go around at the two and three spots (assuming McGrady comes back relatively healthy and relatively soon) for both Wafer and Battier to see time on the court. Nobody can do it all themselves in a team sport. And nobody should have to. That's what tennis and golf the world's strongest man competitions are for...
In Battier's defense, leebigez, neither Tracy McGrady or Yao Ming have been particularly dominant in the postseason (despite spurts of spectacular performances), for Shane Battier to have quite the impact he was supposed to have. Yao and McGrady were supposed to do the heavy lifting against the Jazz in particular, in 2007. Utah was perfectly equipped to send bodies at McGrady to tire him out and clog the middle of the lane to cut down his penetration. Utah also didn't have to double-team Yao as much as the Rockets needed in order for other players to get open looks. And despite all that, the Rockets still took that series to seven games, with a chance to win it. Seen that type of thing happen over and over again on all kinds of clubs during the postseason, leebigez. When it works, McGrady looks like he doesn't want to win or that Yao can't guard Carlos Boozer or beat Mehmet Okur one-on-one. Almost bought the Rockets a series victory against the Lakers, turning Kobe Bryant into a volume shooter. People like to dig up the Rockets past, which isn't such a bad thing sometimes, if you know what you're looking for. Let's do a little case study on a guy like...oh....Mario Elie. The Rockets got him from Portland in the middle of the '93-'94 season, I think, leebigez. Guy had played in every basketball league know to man (and some that weren't known). Fierce player. Tough. Determined. The Rockets especially coveted his ability to get to the basket from the wings. Something that they really didn't have. But what Elie couldn't do, at least consistently, was shoot the ball well from the perimeter. And for all the other talents he brought to the table, Elie wasn't going to be much help to the Rockets (or see a lot of court time) if he couldn't knock down a jumpshot from time to time. That's how he could help the Rockets, and Hakeem Olajuwon, most of all. So guess what? Elie got better at the thing he was weakest at. He could still put the ball on the floor and get to the basket. He still played tough defense. He did all the little things you need a wing player to do. And because he got better at the thing he was weakest at, Elie's been immortalized by his "kiss of death" three point shot against Phoenix in '95, en route to the Rockets' second consecutive championship. The end. Hollywood writes scripts like that all the time. And nobody believes them, leebigez. Everybody's got to play. Everybody's got to play well. And more options is always better than fewer options. There have been guys here who've had the same opportunity to get better and improve that Elie had, whatever you think of Yao or McGrady. But for some reason...I don't know....they say the right things on an interview or they've got a nifty collection of court burns or their campaign slogans are catchy....people around here overlook the things that other teams prey on in a game and use to beat the Rockets. But playing favorites isn't something we do around here.
