You're right, athletic people can have fundamentals, too. Wafer, however, does not. A guy with fundamentals knows when to take shots and where to go on the basketball court on fast breaks and set plays. Wafer is no doubt athletic, but when I watched him during the season, a lot of times he looked lost. Most of his highlights would either come off transition steals or catch and shoot. I didn't see any coming off of screens, cutting at the right time, getting crucial rebounds, and passing to open players or cutters. He just doesn't have the knowledge that most players have of the game. It's like if you play a pickup game, you can tell which players are on the basketball team and which players are just casual players or really athletic but have no clue how to play team ball.
Like Eddie House is a scorer, but does that mean he takes stupid shots? No. He's in there to take those 3s at the right time when he gets free or gets hot, but he always makes some pretty good hustle plays, little plays that help his team win like a simple pass in transition, and attempts to play defense.
I'm not going to go point for point on this post because there is no point in debating what you and I saw. that being said, a shooting guard who shoots 44% and 39% from three has to a least have decent shot selection. and either he is very incredible at creating his own shots to shoot that well while turning it over less than once a game, or he did get easy shots.
Rockets don't need either. They need a role player and scorer, yes but not Shane and Von specifically. With that said, Wafer can be replaced much easier than Shane. If you've ever played with a good role player on your team in a game, you'll know how important they are. It's easy to a "scorer" who wants to be the next Jordan or Kobe
Making 44.7% of your field goals and 39% of 3's is more efficient than making 41% of your field goals and 38.4% of 3's. You disagree with that? Wafer averaged 8.1 field goal attempts per game, Battier averaged 5.9... He could average 25% FG and 10% 3PT. If his team wins, he's a winner, and if they don't win, he's a loser. Thus, somebody like Turkoglu, who's gotten to the finals, is a winner, and somebody like Battier, who's only made it to the second round once and never to the conference finals, is a loser. Right? Isn't that how the logic works? At least that's how it works when Battier-defenders are comparing Battier to Gay...
Nah, it isn't about winning or losing. It's about who's the better fit/player. With your argument, no losing player is ever worth signing since they are always "losers". So why would Boston have signed KG if he was a loser? Oh wait, so they would win a championship the same year.. And Wafer's 3PT percentage is essentially the same as Battier's (0.6% difference oh no) and his FG% is higher simply because he has more dunks and fast breaks.. doesn't mean he "shoots" better than Battier. Is that +3% worth more than all of Battier's hustle plays and critical blocks/rebounds/passes?
Agreed. I like both. And we're getting Wafer for pretty cheap, aren't we? Just like a little over 1M/year or something? So this is a pretty moot argument. They're both Rockets, and we should support both of them.
Von Wafer is the only role player on the Rockets that, for some reason, is expected to have the well-rounded, polished game of an NBA Hall of Famer. The fact is that the guy's job is to score points and he does that effectively and efficiently. I know we have a bunch of people here who rate him based on some sort of drunken, biased view but that does not change his stats and his stats are good. Is he perfect? Of course not. That's why he comes off the bench and will likely get less than $2.5 million a year. Nobody wants to see him get All Star money so why the unfair expectations?
I was a Battier fan. I like efficient players that play defense, but there is a point at which you gotta produce. Battier, while an efficient player, doesn't shoot enough to be a threat anymore. Even if Battier makes every shot he takes, it wouldn't change the outcome of the game a lot because he doesn't shoot enough. To me, this hurts the team because the other team doesn't have to worry about guarding him too much. He only scored more than 15 points 5 times during the regular season and playoffs. His reluctance to try to score forces the Rafer Alston's of the world to try to score. Wafer...while not a huge of his, I would take him over Battier right now. He at least will force his man to guard him if he isn't pouting. His pouting really worries me.
Totally agree....most expect every Rocket's role player to be a great scorer and to have the well-rounded, polished game of an NBA Hall of Famer. It is a testment to the love of Wafer that people don't think he needs to score more.
I like both players but think you are way off here. The proof is in the checkbook first and foremost. Von Wafer = still struggling to get a contract that would provide NBA type financial security. Battier = still has two years left on a contract paying him over $6.9 million a season. The proof is in the media support second. Von Wafer = first time most national fans even heard of him was in the playoffs. Shane = multiple articles hyping his intangibles, doing statistical analyses on him, you have Skeletor creaming in his pants over him whenever he's commentating, you have JVG giving him mad props, etc., etc. Frankly, I'd argue the opposite. Shane is in reality the one who is overappreciated. Fans, commentators and analysts often ignore his obvious deficiencies as player traits that just "come with the territory" for a player who hustles so much and provides so many intangibles. Wafer, on the other hand...look, he was a solidly efficient offensive player, he IS super athletic, CAN drive to the hole and create his own shot, etc. He also has a TON of weaknesses to his game...but as noted, he is a backup getting 15-20 mpg, not Shane Battier's 35+ minutes. Plus, wherever he signs, it won't be for much. Again, I do like both players. But I think Wafer is probably the better bang for the buck at this point. Moreover, they seem to have brought in a newer, younger version of Shane in Trevor Ariza. Not quite Shane's defense, but cheaper, younger and with hopefully more upside offensively. And last year they brought in Ron. Much more of a headcase, but a better offensive player, and while I'd agree not the defender that Shane is, not that far behind. When healthy, Tracy is probably a true SF rather than SG. What they have been able to do, actually, is find some SF's out there...what they haven't been able to do, is find a quality, legit shooting guard. Von isn't more than a backup and never will be, but he is as definitively a SG as you can get.
Pointless threads don't usually get to 7 pages. I'll agree that some threads can seem pointless, but if somebody just wants to post a reaction to a "trend" in threads and/or posts, why not? If it were truly pointless, you would would have had no reason to post other comments. I am more of a "Battier" type as described in the OP. Wafer has athletic ability and will improve. I'm not sure I think he is "necessary". But when he is on, he brings energy and scoring to the table. Since he hasn't been signed yet the Rockets apparently don't deem him as crucial as we might predict.
I'll go with Shane over Von. I liked Von because he was the guy on our second unit that was a legit scorer, great slasher, instant offense. What Von has going for him is that the other wings coming off the bench that we have on our team are either rookies or unproven(JWhite/Air Bud/JTaylor)...unless you add Brent Barry, who couldn't get into the reg rotation last year. Still, with that being said IMO, it is much, much, much easier to replace a Von Wafer on your team, than a Shane Battier. __________________ "Do I need to be liked? Absolutely not... I like to be liked, I enjoy being liked, I have to be liked, but it's not like this complusive NEED to be liked........like my need to be praised...."
Like some of you said I like them both too. They complement eachother on the court, (very) bad defense from Wafer - good defense from Battier, nice offense from Wafer - decent (on some nights) from Battier. But at this moment Battier is still the right player on our team, Houston's going to need that in-your-face defense from him on some nights to hang in there and close the game.
People on this board like shane because he's a politician in waiting. He's very well spoken, charismatic guy, plays hard which is cool. He's the choir boy type with the Duke education. I don't really mind people defending him as long as they also see the doughnut he is on offense. People are quick to point out bruce bowen, but even bowen had a better repetoire than shane. I've seen many times bowen would pump fake and take a closer shot. Not to mention, he wasnt traded for the #8 pick. When you give up more, you expect more.
This past season, Shane Battier averaged 33.9 minutes per game. That was 71st highest in the league. Of the 70 players who averaged more minutes than Battier, not a single one averaged less than his 7.3 points per game. In fact, no one in the top 143 in minutes per game averaged less points than Battier. Think about that. There's 30 teams in the NBA, meaning there's 150 starting lineup spots in total. The top 143 players in minutes per game almost equates to each team's starting 5, and Battier scored less than all of them.
Both are good players, but Shane has done something that if Von could learn, he would last longer in the NBA, and that is checking the ego at the door. Any team sport requires the ego to be put aside, and I've seen most of the Rockets put their ego aside, but Von needs to learn it if he wants to stay on a team. Believe me there are a couple on the Rockets that still need to learn it.
He is a bench scorer. Why are people expecting him to play defense like Battier or look for the open man? He comes into the game to score points. And he does it well. Again his career is so young. Theres a good chance his everything else will develop. He's a $2M player. Some of you hold him to such a high standard. Von Wafer is a role player is very good at his role IMO.
