[Vox] [wuhan] many believe conspiracy theory about a lab

Look... the fact is Communism in theory is great, but you are right that over time it’s too easy for communist leaders to grab too much power taking advantage of the system so no... none of us should be pushing to move to a full communist system of governing ... especially when we keep electing assholes like George W. and Trump.

Democracy isn’t perfect, and it can be dysfunctional, but it’s the best we have. Let’s try to keep it by protecting our elections please.

And no Socialism is not the same as communism. And no democracy is not socialism. Democracies need some socialism for areas we cannot afford to privatize, but by and far everyone I know still believes in Democracy with acceptance of socialism in particular areas. Health INSURANCE being the most hotly debated area simply because capitalism has failed in this area and costs do not resemble the desired outcome.

But other than that, there is so little debate about socialism and especially communism. There is however a big debate about authoritarianism with both Congress and the Judiciary giving more and more power to the president. That’s the biggest threat to Democracy. Not communism from whatever influences you think there are to change Americans to wanting to overthrow our system of democracy.

 

Good Post.

 

what part of that video did you disagree with? I didn't hear anything about climate science. I see him more out in front of the free speech movement and encouraging people to take responsibility for their own lives. And for that, he get's labeled Alt-Right. I was curious about Peterson and can't find anything he says that lines up with the Alt-Right. He's riding a wave of fame and he's surely opened himself up to criticism from people who don't agree with things he says. But he's pretty harmless.

 

This is what happened to old fart lib like this guy, they just get dumber as they get older and still hanging on to the false narrative of an ideology AKA a mental disorder.

 

Just curious, are you the same poster as gwayneco?

 

No I’m not, although I have been accused of that in the past. I only have one account going back 17 years and I seldom post.

 

We need to tattoo the tinfoil hat people so their vote only counts a quarter.



DD

 

It's an interesting aside that dachuda doesn't know what communism is, but what does it even matter? I think it'd be more fruitful to say something we can probably all agree on, that China has a centralized dictatorship with a lot of control over the flow of information, and little incentive to reveal any evidence that may exist that the virus that upended the world came out of one of their labs. They'll say this virus doesn't look like any of the viruses they were studying. If they were studying one that looked like it though, they sure as hell wouldn't tell us. So maybe it occurred in nature, or maybe it escape a lab. It doesn't even matter which; we have to fight it the same way. The only thing that would matter is if they released it on purpose. That would warrant a national defense reaction. But, it still seems really incredible to think they did it on purpose.

 

The theory of marxist socialism is that it will lead to communism, communism doesn't really have leaders, and there really isn't such thing as socialists per se, they're either communists or fascists, as no one is really an advocate for a deliberately transient state, which is what socialism is (well there are people who believe that, but that's like the sun is green type thing).

The reality of socialism is that is always ends in one of two ways, collapse (because it doesn't work) or fascism (because once you assemble all power to the state and the leaders are the state, their survival becomes intertwined with the survival of the state and to relinquish control of the state would mean their extermination from the hordes of people who have been trampled to achieve that power).

The entire doctrine of fascism was written as end stage socialism, by disgruntled socialists, it's also why Orwell's fictional fascist regime was called IngSoc, short for english socialism, he was a former socialist who had watched them all turn into fascists to facilitate their own survival, their people were never freed by socialism, they were made subservient to an authoritarian state.

To give an example in world views, the liberal (and i mean this in the locke sense) sees the market as good, the communist sees the market as evil, the fascist sees the market as a necessary evil that will pose a risk if not kept under the thumb.

The liberal sees the state as a necessity that must be kept in checked, the communist sees the state as evil (this is why they're all on the no borders no wall, no usa at all thing), the fascist on the other hand sees the state as the ultimate good.

This is why you'll also see things that would otherwise seem strange, like fascists backing jeremy corbyn in the UK, the fascist wants socialism, because the fascist knows how socialism ends and the fascist knows it's incredibly hard, particularly post ww2 to rush through the first stage, meanwhile we've all watched every attempt at socialism since then end as a fascist regime, so if you want to call it something else, you want to believe it's something else, that's fine, but it will be fascism.

Also George W was no *******, he was an exemplar of grace, had some shitty policies, particularly the iraq war, but that man is by no means an anything remotely like an *******, Trump on the other hand, 110% NY *******.

 

china, cuba, NK, Russia and Vietnam are all communists. each sees the market differently

 

another interesting thread in hindsight

 

Same guys who are always so sure they know everything and that they are morally superior - while being quite angry and hateful in their responses.

@Buck Turgidson
@NewRoxFan
@VooDooPope

and others

Everyone who doesn't follow their narrative is a "conspiracy theorist" and "spreads misinformation" and must be censored and relentlessly attacked.

Later, when the "conspiracy theory" turns out to be true, they have either forgotten or still think they were right...and virtuous.

 

Some people sure like to act sanctimonious

 

I wonder what those American scientists who put their name on paper to cover for their Wuhan colleagues are feeling right now. They could just double down on doubt and hope this is the worst of it.

Really makes one think to what extent made the American scientists carry water for their contemporaries.

They gave a good reason that we need to move forward and the Chinese ground zero data was crucial for research, but that emphatic declaration hints their collaboration was deep and trusted (gain of function, for instance?).

 

So, as far as I can tell so far (?) this is a Racket news production, right? Taibbi and company? He's been all over the map, politically and in terms of accuracy, but wasn't he also the dude behind the "Twitter Files" which have turned out to mainly be a not-much burger?

Only seeing reports in conservative media on these alleged first three victims of the virus but will keep reading with an open mind. It's just sad to (again) see another version of "oh, we're right! just like we thought! case closed!" And in any study of an outbreak, the work and research continues. Would be fascinating if we've really identified the first three, but I'm not sure I trust any authority on that claim, given the nature of Chinese secrecy.

As of two months ago, scientific analysis definitely left open the "lab leak" theory and couldn't nail it down either way:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/...-wuhan-market-tells-us-about-covids-origins1/

 

Right, again

It sounds like this goes back to the same source as before - the US intel agencies. So, it's again good to summarize the US intel agencies' position:

• The US intel agencies are divided on whether the virus spread naturally or accidentally leaked from a lab, but both possibilities are deem plausible.
  
• The US intel agencies have ruled out the possibility that the virus was developed as a biological weapon.
• The US intel agencies have ruled out the possibility that the virus was genetically engineered.
• The US Dept of Energy says with "low confidence" that the virus may have leaked from a lab.
• The FBI says with "low confidence" that the virus was leaked from a lab.
• The CIA hasn't reached a definitive conclusion.
• The other four agencies and the NIC say with "low confidence" that the virus was transmitted naturally from an animal rather than through a lab accident.

I welcome new data, but as it stands now, this sounds like old data (if you can even trust these 'iffy' authors). Old in the sense that it was known to the US intel agencies but is now "leaked" to these authors, apparently by someone in the US government. If indeed it's those old data, the last US intel agencies' position still remain.


Report: COVID-19's 'Patients Zero' May Have Been Wuhan Lab Scientists (reason.com)

The report—authored by independent journalists Matt Taibbi, Michael Shellenberger, and Alex Gutentag, and published on Substack—names Ben Hu, Yu Ping, and Yan Zhu as "three of the earliest people to become infected with SARS-CoV-2" in fall 2019. Not only did these three scientists work at the WIV, but they worked specifically on gain-of-function research; Hu in particular was considered a "star pupil" of Shi Zhengli, dubbed the "bat woman" for her work studying coronaviruses in bats.

The report's authors spoke with multiple sources inside the U.S. government who provided the information. These sources, whose names were withheld to protect their anonymity, said there is little doubt that the laboratory is where the pandemic started.

The findings have not yet been confirmed by other journalists, though several government agencies—including the FBI and the Energy Department—have stated that the lab leak is the most likely theory of COVID-19's origins. In February, FBI Director Christopher Wray told Fox News that COVID-19 most likely resulted from "a potential lab incident in Wuhan, China."
​

 

Now that I've read the Times piece (not the Taibbi piece, which was really pretty weak sauce, at least as written), I find it more interesting. It seems to amplify the previous government info by really following the scientific leads, including where they started (like in that creepy mine circa 2016) and where they suddenly went cold (e.g. Wuhan virologist goes scientifically / publishing silent between 2016 and outbreak), etc, etc.

Thanks to Os for posting that in the other thread -- great read.

 

How many times must conservatives and critical thinkers be proven correct before people stop blindly believing the stories that governments feed them? If anyone has not yet noticed, any time a true narrative threatens any type of government power, it is falsely labeled a conspiracy theory by colluding members of the media and government agencies. When you see this label applied, that's your first sign to dig deeper and question the validity. Unfortunately, almost all liberals foolishly take the government propaganda and misdirection at face value -- often mocking the people who are rightly calling it out as lies. This just keeps on happening again and again yet people continue to repeatedly fall victim to the same tactics. You are being manipulated and lied to. I know it doesn't feel good to hear this, but it's an important first step to opening your eyes to reality.