Vouchers

achebe -- I'm sorry you have so little faith in the free market. I personally will take a privatized effort over a public govt effort every time! I don't see how the "product" of education can get any worse for those kids in inner-city schools.

Yes..as a Republican I generally believe people and their local govts should be the first line of defense against their concerns. It seems that anytime we encounter a problem we immediately cry for some federal solution which would standardize the response to this problem for every state in the Union. That frustrates me.

On a lighter note...I've never heard anyone say that they can't decide if they're a communist or a republican. I'm guessing there are some major fiscal policy differences which should make it pretty clear. Not to mention that the concept behind conservatism is a limited, centralized govt with a focus on federalism and local support.

I too became imbittered with politics in college. I voted for Clinton in 1992 and that was a huge mistake. The very reasons I voted for him were never fulfilled..in particular, there was no middle class tax cut. Then as I learned more of the Constitution and came to value individual rights (not the right to kill your baby) I became more conservative. Before, as a Christian, I used to think that of course the govt should do all it could to help those in need. The problem is that it's not the job of the government to be everyone's daddy. And it comes at a huge cost...our liberty as the federal govt grows and grows. After reading 1984 I became very skeptical of a centralized govt entirely...and after reading the Federalist and Anti-Federalist Papers my viewpoints changed. In law school my conservative convictions were affirmed as I read cases where the Supreme Court twisted the Constitution every which way to produce an end result that would back up Roosevelt and the New Deal. Read Wickard v. Fillburn if you have a chance! A quick summary: Congress has the power to regulate interstate commerce...a law was passed that prohibited farmers from using certain amounts of their own crops...so the defendant was using part of his crops to feed his own family...of course he argued that Congress couldn't stop this because it was beyond their power..certainly it didn't affect interstate commerce. But the stinking court said that since he used his own crops, he was not buying produce in the market and this was affecting interstate commerce. When I read this I became physically ill!! (just joking, obviously!). What a joke..but this is the kind of twisting of the Constitution that has to be done to provide for these programs. Fortunately our court is a little more respectful of federalism and of the Constitution of recent...like when they spurned Congress' attempt to regulate guns in schools based on the notion that by allowing guns in school it was affecting kids' education and thus later affecting them in the workplace which eventually had an effect on interstate commerce. Come on!!!

Anyway..sorry again for the ranting and rambling...

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Oh my, i just reread my post. I apologize, I hurredly wrote it at work and was obviously not payin attention.

MadMax,

As I said before, I love the idea of HS being like college - picking and applying to any school. If that had been the case for me, I would not have gone to that hell hole.
Anyway, I will try to answer. A lot of the reason I do not see that happening was somewhat outlined in my earlier post. How do we get ther?

Vouchers, I do not feel will do it. By the way, you did not give your take on the afforability/covering the remainder aspect of vouchers.

Anyway, There will always be rich and poor neighborhoods. If tax dollars always determine the school, the poor-neighborhood schools willl always be worse. Then who would choose to go there? No one. So they crumble. The good schools get overcrowded. Does that mean build more schools in affluent areas only? That is unfair to the citizens to pay double the taxes.

Increase privitization - put private schools in those neighborhoods? I have a problem with that for a few reasons. First, the religious aspect which does not need to be expounded. Second, who will fill the coffers? Corporations will. With this comes schools as testing grounds for products. Living advertising. There have already been problems with this sponsorship in schools. Such has the infamous Florida kid who wore a pepsi shirt on "Coke Day" and was suspended for a week or something.

It is a kind of 1984 from a different angle - corporate big brother. A corporation is just as hierarchical as a government. Only they are global.

I do not want to bore you anymore, so I will stop.

Your exchange with Juan Valdez piqued my interest a bit, so I will let you in on a little sumthin.

While you probably think we are polar opposites, we re not too terribly far off.
I have many socialistic ideals, but I also beleive in decentralization of government - a kind of Federalism.

Figure that one out!

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Play the Piano Drunk Like a Percussion Instrument Until the Fingers Begin to Bleed a Bit

 

Clearly we've hit a point of the argument/discussion that I'm unprepared to answer to. I don't know much more about the details than I've already given. Sorry!!! I'm unprepared to answer as to what happens to the poorest schools as they become abandoned. But it's possible to argue that vouchers are merely a stopgap measure until we reach a point where our poorest schools are brought up to a better level of education. Just a thought.

What did I not give you my take on?? sorry..must have missed it!

Never heard of a socialist federalist!!! Oh well...Juan is a republican communist so I guess anything is possible. George W. Bush's newest catch-phrase..."Workers Unite!!!" huh???

I'm not afraid of companies...ultimately, we pay their bills. They do not have the power to regulate our liberties away...they do not have the power to imprison us..they do not raise armies...they do not tax us. In fact, they provide most of us with a chance at employment and a nice pension plan! A world without jobs is a lot scarier than a world without govt to me. If you want to move to Montana and be self-sufficient you can. But the govt follows you everywhere. Govt is a necessary evil..damn I quote Jefferson way too much!

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MadMax,

You did not give your take on the fact that vouchers will not cover the entire cost of a private school, merely work towards it. The difference would have to be covered by the family. How can a low income family cover that (essentially they would be paying the whole price - their tax mony, given back to them, which will work towards a private school, plus the remainder)? The only difference would be that they woul not have to pay private school tuition and pay local school tax.

As far as corporations, I was mainly talking about the whole manipulation/advertisement aspect. Basically, mind control. Not, "go kill your mother," but Coke good, buy more!" Also, if a corporation is running a school, do their ideals get promoted more? It is already happening with media controlled by corporations (something like 4 companies control 80% of the worlds media).

Additionally, no MNC's cannot kill, etc., but they can influence policy making (as they do now) which could lead to something else. This may be far fetched, but my ultimate point is that giving corporations more power puts government even more in their pockets, turning them into a replacement government.

Ultimately, we pay the politicians's bills, yet they do whatever the hell they want.

You don't need huge mnc's to have a job. I, for example, work in a company of two. If I do well in the future when I am in control, I might expand it to three.

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Play the Piano Drunk Like a Percussion Instrument Until the Fingers Begin to Bleed a Bit

 

Also, MadMax, if you look hard enough in a political theory book, you will find something close to what I am talking about with the socialism/federalism. I modify it to my own philosophy, but general ideas are similar.

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Play the Piano Drunk Like a Percussion Instrument Until the Fingers Begin to Bleed a Bit

[This message has been edited by rimbaud (edited August 04, 2000).]

 

rim -- cool...I own my own law practice...so I know you don't have to work for a big company...but there are millions who count on them for their paychecks. I am concerned however with the corporate control of the media, which previously existed as almost a fourth independent branch on our govt..so much for that, huh? Limbaugh once said, what's the difference between a state-run media and what we have today if every time the administration spins their story the media goes right along with that spin. I read today that CBS now plans to cover a lot more of the Democratic convention than they did of the Republican convention. That's a little curious to me!

First I imagine that many of the schools will offer scholarships...I understand there are some really great scholarship programs in Baltimore where they fund the cost of inner city kids who do real well at school to go to schools that do much better at educating children. Second...I have no idea!! I really don't have all the answers here..I'm admittedly ignorant..but please don't let that affect the way you think about vouchers. Just find some more info on them from a better source. I think privitization is a good solution for both education and social security. Hell, if the govt would let me cash out now I bet I could do tons better than the 2% my money is earning with social security!!! Forget cash out..keep my money...just let me keep the rest of it from here on out!!

Explain a little bit on your socialist/republican hybrid!! I'm really interested. I help incorporate small businesses..given the extent of regulation and how difficult govt can make life for small business owners, i'm surprised you would be anything short of conservative.

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MadMax,

If you really want to know, I will have to email you because it is too complicated and long and I do not want to post it here.
Let me know if you really want me to and I will do my best.

With scholarships - maybe, but, again, for every needy student (keeping in mind that this is a larger number than college admissions)? I don't know.

I appreciate your honesty in admiting you limitations. I am not looking to you for all the answers in as much as I am just listing my problems.

In the end, I would only be in favor of vouchers if they were honestly used in experimentation (no spin or doctoring of results - unbiased evaluators) and if other methods were attempted at the same time (such as working extremely hard to raise overall standards and give more in general to education, more local control, etc). I am perfectly willing to have a "keep experimenting to find what works" attitude, despite the money lost - as long as it covers a broad range.

I'll see if I can sleep now.

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Play the Piano Drunk Like a Percussion Instrument Until the Fingers Begin to Bleed a Bit

 

MadMax,

I wanted to add that I do not completely buy the media as liberal thought.

The media censors a great many stories - do not report on others. It does not matter if they are left or right - merely not fitting with the commercial sponsors.

There have been independent studies that have tracked various incidents.

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Play the Piano Drunk Like a Percussion Instrument Until the Fingers Begin to Bleed a Bit

 

Achebe -- I tried to imply that I was joking there with the Hannity thing. I heard the 95% number from several sources back in '96, I of course have no proof of that.

Bill O'Reilly is the man.

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"Thick, lustrous hair is very important to me."
-George Costanza

 

Freak, agreed, Bill O'Reilly rocks. He doesn't waver in any of his opinions no matter what. I don't agree with him often, but I do respect him more than any other "journalist".

I just got finished reading an interesting article about why the RNC is killing the DNC with their mudslinging against Gore. One of the reasons the article cited is that there are a lot of former members of the media working for the RNC press, so they know what the media will listen to and what they won't.

Thought that was interesting (article in August 2000 Brill's Content).

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Going for the Rolls Royce!

visit www.swirve.com

 

I think there are really two key issues with regard to vouchers.

1. Like rimmy said, vouchers only pay a portion of schooling. Scholarships might be an option but only for smart kids. ALL kids have a right to a good education and some kids who may not qualify for scholarships might just have untapped potential. Einstein was kicked out of school in 6th grade.

The big issue is that vouchers are supposed to help parents pay for private schooling of their child so they can get a better education. Well, if a parent is working three jobs just to pay for food, who cares about a voucher?

The very folks this vouchers system is designed to help, by the very definition of the system, won't be helped. The perception is that, if you are poor, you must be lazy. The fact is that I visited numerous kids' homes with my father as a child and a teenager (my father teaches in HISD's hospital/homebound program) and many of these families are struggling to survive.

I saw single-parent families where the mother worked three jobs to put food on a table that sat next to a gaping hole in the wall when, if bumped, sent a swarm of flying roaches out of it. I went into Acres Homes and saw parents who both worked 2 jobs and were as good a parents as you could find but couldn't afford a car and had to ride the bus every day.

These people simply cannot afford the make up the difference vouchers do not cover.

2. This is not a solution. Ultimately, what vouchers are saying is, "Our school system sucks so please educate your children somewhere else." Well, that isn't an answer.

It is a stop-gap measure for some but doesn't address the long-term issue. In addition, the schools in most desperate need of help won't get it because they are inner city schools where the tax bracket is very low. Since school taxes aren't distributed throughout all schools, the poorer areas continue to struggle and perpetuate the cycle of poverty and no education.

The only way to fix the problems with education is to address them head on. Don't avoid them or try to sneak around them.

Max, you seem to think that competition is the best way to make education better like in business. Well then, here's a suggestion. Rather than have the government run everything with regard to education and rather than letting vouchers attempt to fix the problem, allow the corporations themselves to get involved.

Run the schools like a non-profit business and allow companies to do it instead of the government. The governement can regulate them and be responsible for infrastructure (fixing the buildings, dealing with plumbing, etc), the things the government is used to doing. The companies run the schools, hire the faculty, administrate the problems and handle bookkeeping.

In return for providing free education for the students, the government allows the non-profit business (education agencies) to reap the tax benefits and do fund raising. Have computer companies to sponsor the schools by giving them computer equipment.

Generate private funding of books and supplies by teaming with publishing and retail companies. Run it like any non-profit organization. There are lots of very large non-profits who generate millions every year and run very good businesses.

Vouchers aren't the answer, but maybe competition is - just in a different way.

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Save Our Rockets and Comets
SaveOurRockets.com

 

"I wanted to add that I do not completely buy the media as liberal thought."

95% of those in the "media" voted for Clinton last election.

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"Thick, lustrous hair is very important to me."
-George Costanza

 

Where did you get that statistic, Matt Drudge?

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Going for the Rolls Royce!

visit www.swirve.com

 

Either him or Sean Hannity, LOL.

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"Thick, lustrous hair is very important to me."
-George Costanza