Hakeem Olajuwon jumps into GOAT debate: ‘Jordan is a far superior player’ https://nba.nbcsports.com/2020/10/2...-goat-debate-jordan-is-a-far-superior-player/ He's always said this, but ...
Didn't wanna start a new thread, but saw this video on Youtube and I gotta admit this guy pretty much nails it. If you have 15 mins it's definitely worth the watch.
I won't say who the best is, but I list the + and - of each player. Bill Russell -- +Perhaps, the greatest defensive player ever. +One of the greatest rebounders ever. +One of the greatest shotblockers ever. +Probably the main reason the Celtics won 11 titles. +Never missed the playoffs. + 12 NBA Finals appearances/11 all-star appearances in the same seasons. - Mediocre offensive player (that's what pushes him out of some people's list, rightfully so). The worst amongst all of the top 10/20 greats. - Poor FT shooter. +/- Probably had the best supporting cast of any other top 10 player in history (not his fault, performance burden is not the same) Wilt Chamberlain +Perhaps, the greatest all-around big man ever. The greatest all-around player ever. +Most dominant scorer, rebounder, and also shot blocker in history. He's also has the highest assist per game average over every other center in history, the + He holds the most records of any other NBA player with (69). + Many rules were changed because of him. + 9 seasons over 30 ppg, 10 over 25 ppg. 7 scoring titles. + He's the only player to average over 40 ppg, in the NBA season. He did it, twice. + 12 seasons of 20+ rpg. 11 rebounding titles. +He's the only center in league history to lead the league in assists. No other center in history averaged over 7.0 assist per game for season, until ...Nikola Jokic accomplished it a few seasons ago. +Dominated all of his contemporaries in his prime in head to head matchups. He did have some great competition, during his prime (Russell, Reed, Bellamy, and Kerr) + 4x MVP + Arguably the greatest athlete among the GOATs, MJ, Lebron, and Olajuwon being the others. +Arguably the greatest athlete ever. (others) + Unique player, don't need alot of pieces around him to help a team win. - 2 NBA titles, even though he does have the excuse of playing a nearly unbeatable dynasty team. - In some of his best seasons, his teams were fairly average and did miss the playoffs. - May have valued personal accomplishments over team accomplishments. - Poor free throw shooter - He wasn't known for spectacular performances in the playoffs, like some of the other goats. Kareem Abdul Jabbar + The greatest center who kept his peak play the longest. + Longevity, one of the longest careers in NBA history. + 10 NBA Finals appearances + 6x MVP + 6x NBA champion + 17 consecutive seasons of averaging over 20 ppg and 13 w/ 10 or more rpg. + Underrated defensively + Of all the great centers of the day, even after his playing days, he might have been the most well-rounded big man. + He was the top of guy at center for over a decade, like Wilt. Walton, Malone, Thurmond, Unseld, and few others were pretty steady challenges. Though, I think Moses might've taken that title in the 80s. Granted, Kareem was well into his 30. + Like Wilt, you don't need alot of players around him to make the team competitive. - At his peak in LA, the Lakers were a pretty average team. - In his twilight years, the Lakers, at times, seemed to play better without him. Magic Johnson + 5x NBA champion + 3x MVP + 9 NBA Finals appearances/9x All Star in all 9. + Will probably get flack for this, but who cares -- No other point guard came close to what he was doing with the Lakers, during the 80s/90s. Sort of like Oscar Robertson, he didn't actually have too many true rivals at his position. I'd say Isiah Thomas and John Stockton were closest, but even they couldn't effect the game, like Magic could. + 6,9 point guard who was the best passer in the league, and possibly ever. + Versatility - Allowed him to effectively play PF, SF, SG, or PG. + He may have been the best player in the game, when the league might have been arguably at its greatest peak. +Never missed the playoffs. + The Lakers held the best record in the conference for 9 consecutive seasons and 10 total season with Magic. + He's arguably the greatest play maker ever. Other challengers - MJ, LeBron, Bird, and Kobe. + Of all the NBA elites, he was probably the best ball handler. - Although, he was a pretty good scoring point guard, he wasn't quite as strong scoring threat as say West, Robertson - Defense was probably the weakest part of his game. - Ranged from a mediocre to decent jump shooter. +/-Like, Russell, probably benefited from being in the right place at the right time. Larry Bird + 3x NBA champion + 5 NBA Finals appearance/Without question the best player on his team and possibly in the league at the time. +The first player to master the 3 point shot. Making it reasonable shot and offense that teams have to respect and defend. + Of all the NBA elites (top 5/20), he's probably the greatest shooter. The only person that comes close is ...Curry, maybe Kobe. But, Kobe did not have the same efficiency as the other two. +He could take any shot from just about anywhere in the half court, it would be a good shot. + Of all the NBA elites (top5/20), he's one of the best passers and playmakers of the group. +Versatility -- PF, SF, SG, or PG, sort of like Magic, he was an aberration at his size that he could play any of those positions, effectively without any drop off. + Well-rounded player, no noticeable weakness in his game. + For the time, he was in the league, he was the best player at his position. Alex English, Adrian Dantley, Nique, Worthy, King, and an older Dr. J were incredible, but none of them had Bird's combination of skills (shooting, scoring, and passing -- playmaking) also he was arguably the best defensive player at that group. All of those players can create their own offense. People sleep on Dantley and English. + Of all the NBA elites, he might have been the best clutch shooter or late game scorer on the list. + He can also make any type of play to win a game. + He's just effective with ball in his hands as he is without. - Longevity, injuries. - Only 3 titles, but in a very tough era. - Defense waned in his later years, like many players. He was pretty good in his earlier years.
Michael Jordan + 6x MVP, 6x Finals MVP, and 6-0 in the Finals. He is the only GOAT, who hasn't lost in the Finals (but some fans/NBA people will argue against point -- strength of opponents). + 2x 3 peat champion -- Won all six as the best player on his team and in the league. + He was the best player in the league for well over a decade. + Arguably the greatest all-around player ever. + Arguably the greatest athlete ever. (Not just basketball). He probably had the best combination of speed, agility, and physical strength. + Arguably the greatest playmaker ever. + He was a shut down defender for a good bit of his career. 1 DPOY award (some will argue against this, but he could be defended on this one). + He's arguably the greatest scorer ever with Wilt and KD, maybe Curry being his other challenges. + He never averaged under 20 ppg in his career. + 13 seasons over 25 ppg. (Beyond Godly!!!) + He could create his own offense from anywhere on the court. + Might be the greatest wing-player who could get their points in the post ever, as much from the perimeter. + Great mid-range shooter. Amongst the best ever (top 10-20). It's a pretty tough list. +Underrated as a passer. + Similar to Wilt and Kareem, he really didn't need alot of players around him to be successful. +Arguably, the greatest end game scorer or 4th quarter player ever. - Chicago was pretty mediocre, early in his career. Washington was below average. - Not the best team mate in the world. - Accused of being a ball-hog, throughout his career, but became better during their championship years. -Wears on his teammates. Hakeem Olajuwon + Arguably the most talented center of all time. + Arguably the greatest offensive and defensive big man ever. Just going by skills and talent. +Arguably the best post player ever. + 13 seasons averaging over 20 ppg and 12 season of 10 or more rpg. + Of all of the elite NBA centers, he might be the only you could put into any offense or defense and not have any sort of drop off. 1. He can easily switch onto wings and guard pick and rolls 2. Stay in front smaller speeder players. 3. Chase down guards. 4. Still defend paint without hesitation. + Arguably the best center in the league, at the time, his position was at its deepest (older Kareem, Moses, Ewing, Robinson, Mutombo, Shaq, and Mourning). + One of the greatest shooting big men + For the bigs/centers, he might be the best at creating his own offense. + He's still one of the few NBA stars who won championship without an active all-star on his team. Olajuwon and Rick Barry. + He had Houston steadily in the playoff picture, from his first season. Had them in the Finals, in only his 2nd season. + Pulled off one of the greatest upsets in NBA history versus Showtime Lakers in 1986. + He is one of the few NBA greats who might have had a greater second half of their careers than the first half. +/- He didn't start playing basketball until he was 16. - Houston was pretty mediocre in some years, during his prime. - His scoring numbers aren't quite up to snuff versus other all time centers, like Wilt and Shaq Shaquille O'Neal + 4x NBA champion, 3x Finals MVP, 1 MVP + Most dominant offensive player for good stretch of time he was in the league. + May have been the most unstoppable offensive player at his peak, ever. +10 seasons averaging over 25 ppg, 14 seasons over 20 ppg, and 13 seasons over 10 rpg. + He dominated from day 1, like Wilt, Hakeem, and Kareem. Made his team a powerhouse, pretty quickly. + His early years were so dominant, that he was already considered one of the greatest centers ever, after about 4-6 seasons. + In his early days, he was a pretty good defensive player. -Accused of being lazy and out-of-shape. -Accused of not having killer instinct. -Public feud with Kobe. - As he aged, he was a negative on defense. Kobe Bryant + 1 MVP, 2x Finals MVP, and 5x NBA Champion. + Arguably one of the greatest playmakers ever. + Might have been toughest shot maker ever. Hit any shot from any spot on the court at any given time. + For the first half of his career, he ranged from a good defensive player to a shutdown defensive player. + Never hesitated to guard and stop the other team's best wing player. + One of the most clutch and ferocious 4th quarter players among the NBA elites. + He was one of the greatest all-around SG/wing players ever, being an elite offensive player and great defensive one. + 12 seasons of 25+ ppg, 15 over 20 ppg. + Might have been the most difficult wing player to guard in history. + He was an effective shooter, as he was a post player, as much he could shoot from 3. + For the time, he was in the league, he was the best SG. People may argue McGrady and Vince, but after about 2002/2003, Kobe went flying past both of them. + He had the potential to be better all-around player than MJ and could've been. - Efficiency shooting - Feuds with Shaq and Dwight Howard. - Lakers were pretty average, outside of the Shaq years and the 3 Finals years. - Missed the playoffs, quite a few times. (injuries, though in some of that.) - Accused of being ball - hog and hard to play with. - He had habit of shooting his team out of games, in both regular seasons and playoffs (bad shots/inefficient shots) - Wears on his teammates. LeBron James (never was...never will be. Joking Joking) + 4x MVP, 4x Finals MVP, and 10 NBA Finals appearances. + Arguably the greatest playmakers ever. + One of the best all-around players in NBA history. + Woefully underrated scorer, all time. 19 season averaging over 20 ppg. + 18 seasons averaging over 25 ppg. (That's pretty impressive, though). + He's the total points leader, like Gretzky in hockey, he has far and away the most points scored or assisted from one player. (57,428) + Deadly efficiency. + 6,8 - 260+ pound player with elite point guard skills who can also score and use his size in the paint. + Versatility -- PF, SF, SG, and PG, maybe a center in certain seasons. He can play pretty easily, and be just as effective. + He can be just effective scoring, as he is passing, or neither and off the ball at times. + Like Olajuwon, he might be a better player in the 2nd half of his career than he was in the first. + He's actually one of the best late game or 4th quarter players in history. Also, he might have been the best at making or finding the right play, similar to Bird. +Teams collapse after he leaves. +/- At his best, he was shut down defender at nearly every position on the court. At his worst, he was poor defensive player. +/-Mediocre jump shooter (mid-range shooting), but a decent and sometimes very good 3 point shooter. +/- Team hopping, but he is able to legally do that within the rules. - 4-6 in the NBA Finals. - Teams collapse after he leaves (before he leaves). - Wears on teammates. - Earlier in his career, he gained the reputation of being choker for 2009 ECF/ 2010 ECSF/2011 Finals. Tim Duncan 5x NBA Champion, 3x Finals MVP, and 2x MVP. + Arguably one of the best defensive bigs ever. PF/C + 5-1 in the NBA Finals +Never missed the playoffs. + Longevity + One of the more consistent players across the board. + Arguably the greatest post player ever..vs. Olajuwon, McHale, and Hayes. + Pretty elite shooting big man +Greatest PF ever without any debate. + Amongst the best passing PF ever. + 13 season of 10+ rpgs. - His scoring numbers aren't quite up to what the other greats are. - He was on a team, where didn't have to be depend upon to be the best scorer or playmaker. Like the Celtics, SA was just so damn good franchise -wise. - He could rest more than most star. Omitted players (from this discussion, who could be in this argument) : Oscar Robertson -- Did not win enough titles, very similar to LeBron and MJ. Jerry West -- See above, also did not win enough titles. Kevin Durant -- Only 2 titles, probably not quite all-around, like most of the players above. Elgin Baylor -- Not enough titles. Steph Curry -- Defense, playoff performance, but is arguably the greatest shooter ever and a great ball handler.
The problem with all these stat and accolade comparisons is the NBA gets better and better as time goes on. Like Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell, they will still be good in MJ's time but nowhere as dominant. You think Chamberlain can still lead the league in assists in 1990s? Lol. The same is true today MJ put up insane efficiency stats but thats for his time, in todays nba he will still be a superstar but wont be that efficient and certainly not guaranteed to win 6 rings in 2 three peats. Its 2022 30 yrs since the 90s, you tripping if you think the comp now is the same as back then. Just the training, technology, knowledge and globalization of the NBA has elevated the player quality by a lot. Thats why I have Lebron as the GOAT cuz not only has he been a 19 yr superstar, he has been putting up his accolades vs the best competition compared to MJ, Kareem and all the rest. Comparing MJ's stats in the 90s vs Lebron now is like someone comparing a euro league superstar to the NBA today. Nobody will do it cuz the comp is different but since its MJ lets make all the logical leaps necessary so he remains the GOAT.
I know but hey it's a 5 man's game. The Center spot is over represented here. Jordan hovers above every other SG.
We had that convo not long ago. I disagree vehemently. Yes, the league got more athletic, more skilled, more diverse, modern and over represented on social media. The league moved away from post game and embraced 3 point shooting and overall shooting. The league made a lot of rule changes, a normal foul in the past could be Flagrant 1 nowadays. But it is no coincidence that the Top 10 and Top 20 players list of All time mostly consists of players of the 60s,70s, 80s, 90s and 00s.
There's no way to reasonably extrapolate what a player's performance would be if transplanted into another era. We'd have to just give up on comparing players from different eras in that case. Instead, we should rate players relative to other players in their era, and then compare those standardized ratings across eras. That can help us answer an actually answerable question.
Thats cuz the players right now are still playing and it would be disrespectful to kick out iconic players for those guys still active. Guys like Steph, KD, Kawhi, Giannis , Luka those guys would destroy the top players in the 60s. Like Pistol Pete Maravich. You really think Pistol Pete holds a candle to Jayson Tatum? Lol. Just use common sense man. America had a population of around 235M in the 1980s. Since basketball wasnt that developed except for outliers like Sabonis most foreigners arent that skilled in basketball. Maybe there was a Latvian dude just as good as Moses Malone but never got discovered. Nowadays anyone in the world who is good is gonna get discovered and scooped up by schools or Euroleague and eventually find his way to the NBA. This increased the pool of possible NBA players from 235M to 7.9B. With such a drastically larger pool of players its impossible for the quality not to increase. Just look at any sport with records like running, swimming etc. See how these records get broken as the decades go on? Thats an indication of how the quality of athletes go up over time and the same is true with bball.
Yeah but MJ fans usually use this argument to say why Bill Russell isnt the goat right? He dominated his era more than MJ did and won more than 10 consecutive rings and would have hada lot more FMVPs than MJ if those already existed but somehow fans are able to recognize his competition is inferior to MJ's era so you gotta discount his stats and accolades. But if its MJ nah those dont apply we cant compare them nothing doing lol. If you wanna judge players relative to their peers then why isnt the goat e8ther Chamerlain or Russell? Russell won 11 rings and 2 additional as a player coach, Chamberlain was so dominant he lead the league in assists just cuz he wanted to.
I agreed to an extent that role players got better overall but if I look at the superstars today. I do not recognize them as better. They are more flashy for sure but I see less and less domination in the Playoffs. There is only 1 LBJ and 1 Durant and 1 Giannis. On the contrary, there is one part of the NBA that is becoming more like Euro League. Teams are starting to emphasize balanced scoring and more responsibilities were given to role players and borderline stars.
Then it's a question of how to rate players in their era. By some player rating methods Bill Russell might be higher than Jordan; by others he is not. That's where the debate lies -- what's the most meaningful way of rating a player relative to their competition.
Bron is wasting his time with the Lakers. I said that. If he joined a mediocre market, he would have had more roses thrown his way. Unfortunately Hardware incl MVP, FMVP, DPOY trophies is still the Number 1 argument. For me, MJ's double retirement actually added to his brilliant career, another obstacle in his way.
I really hate these arguments. Sure, I'll give you that overall, the players nowadays are more athletic and more skilled, but the top players stats in any given year have remained steady. To me, that just enhances the 80s/90s/00s players even more because of what they were able to accomplish despite the tighter defense, harder hits and less efficient style of game. I know there isn't any way to evenly compare players from different eras but I feel that today's era the stats are inflated by about 10-20%. I consider the "modern NBA" after the merger and inclusion of the 3 point shot. Prior to that, the game was too different. I think that would be the best reference point and we can compare "modern era" from around 1976/1977 and the classic era which is anything before to have their own comparisons.
I agree with alot of what you saying, but there are few things I do disagree with. I still believe it's all relative. People (NBA Youtubers and commenters) got into tizzy over the video NBAStoryteller made about John Stockton (not having a left). Dudes were literally upset over his video and found it disrespectful. The fans from Utahs and that era were not having any of that. I believe Rusty Buckets did a video about Stockton as well, and fans were not having it. People were not going to piss on their Salt Lake City King. NBAStoryteller responded with a video talking about the history of dribbling (it accidentally also chronicled point guards in a sense). Talked about the history of the game, and focused on players, like Bob Cousy, Pistol Pete, and Isiah Thomas. Who used their ball-handling as an offensive weapon/skill. They easily switch hands, use ball-handling moves, and make defenders have to guard their dribbling, as well as their driving, passes, or setups to shoot. He just started scouting random games through the 70s and 80s, most point guards were either posting up at 3 point lot (which would be kind of odd, now) or passing the ball. Most point guards still used a dominant hand. The face-up game was almost 180 versus now. Storyteller highlighted Fred Van Vleet in his array of offensive moves and ball-handling skills. Almost no point guards in the 80s had a game, like that, (maybe except Isiah Thomas), while Van Vleet at the time was a backup-pg. Good PG, but a backup. Stockton did not have a left. That's an accurate statement. These fans don't realize how that would handicap him against modern defenses. Where they have to guard people, like Iverson, Kyrie, Westbrook, Rose, Dame, or Curry. Don't get me started on the new generation, like Morant, Trae, Fox, and few other player. It's not fair as it is. I cannot imagine those players being limited in previous eras. They can shoot from anywhere on the court, hit contested 3 pointers, and get to the basket with ease. Even handchecking, I think would help, but it won't if you cannot keep up with him. They are all pretty good passers and create their own offense. Stockton was not being disrespected, because three point guards that are almost universally ahead of him are Big O, Magic, and West (Sg/pg). He got a few more assist than they did, but he couldn't score like them. Utah, even with an MVP like Malone, were often 1 and done for most of their prime. It took them 12 years to reach the NBA Finals, even though these are two of the greatest players ever (ranked in 15/30). Curry has more championships, and is all time great scorer. You've also got CP3, Kidd, Payton, Frazier, Nash, Kyrie, and even a player, like Dame. I will fall on this sword, I'd take him over Stockton, just on the eye test alone.
