Barkley Apologists and Supporters, I guess we reap what we sow. I never intended to turn this into a insult Charles session. I have a lot of respect for Charles. As I said in my original post. This has to be looked at from a chemistry angle. I would not have called Charles a great player if I did not believe he was so. But as many of you already know, I have stood and accounted for my belief that he is holding the team back at the same time. My hope when introducing this rule was to illustrate the point that picking up a great players isn't always just upside. There's downside as well and the downside should always be considered carefully before making the deal. The Seattle situation Several of you brought up the point that Chuck was brought in to beat Seattle and we did that. I respect that and certainly haven't forgotten that, but do you realize what you are saying? We made arguably the biggest change of the last five years to beat one team. Doesn't that strike anyone else as odd? I also think we have to recall that the talent on the Rockets WAS centered around the post up game even more so than the last two seasons. So in a sense, Barkley did make people around him better (particularly Maloney). What this fails to recognize is that the style of the players around Barkley has changed and Charles has not changed with it. Will, Any Rocket fan and NBA fan will miss Charles. However, I do think the club will be better next year. Absolutely, we will miss his rebounding, but having Cato next to Dream will improve our defense, and players like Francis, Cat, and Anderson will have more room to penetrate. Like I said before, you have to take the upside and the downside. ------------------ Rockets When? Rockets When?
If Drexler can't deal with CB's on court play, fine, I don't want him anyway. If Drexler is willing to give it a try he will be fine now, as long as the antiBarkley rule passed. I am glad that Drexler admitted he is good friend with CB off the court, so that Barkley ass parasites can shut up now. Drexler is a great player, however, there is no value to keep Drexler anyway. We will have to give him millions of dollars the year Pippen and Mcdyess in the free agent market. His retirement helped the Rockets to free cap space, along with Charles' unselfish act for a pay cut. Sure we should have gotten Mcdyess instead of Pippen, but after all we got Cato, Rogers and Wiz for Pip. Not a good deal but a beneficial one. Besides, if Drexler is still playing now, we won't get Shandon Anderson. Drexler is gone, so what? His leaving benefits the Rockets rebuilding. The Rockets have to move on, and Barkley is helping the rebuilding as Francis' mentor. See, no player is perfect, you all can complain about CB's defense, but the situation is, Charles Barkley is the best power forward the Rockets could get in these years, period. Unless the Rockets trade Drexler back for Otis Thorpe, which was not gonna happen. He did his job as a pf, to rebound and score. His defense is not great but can pass, actually, I dont' care about shotblocking at the pf position. Kevin Willis and Othella Harrington are giving 1 and .5 blocks per game at present. Big deal. That equals like 2 points or less a game,and fouls given fo blocking shots not counted. while Charles Barkley makes it up easily with his scoring, rebounds, assists, on court leadership and most important of all, occasionally shutting down his opponent. CB is never credited for shutting down his opponents with his intimidating presence, in the first game vs the kings, Chris Webber shot like 1-12, Othella Harrington shot 4-14 last game. Guys these are the leading scorers in FG% in the NBA and they have had a career nightmare facing CB. On the contrary, tell me one other opposing player at different postion who had a similar night in this season? Shandon Anderson is a good defender, but he didn't shut down guys like Charles Barkley, from over 50 FG% down to only around 10% . Look at what the Rockets gave up for CB, only Cassel has some game, but we got Francis to fill the role of Cassel. Cassel is not some one to build a franchise around but Francis is, and we won't have Francis if Cassel is here that is quite for sure. So the leaving of Cassel and Drexler is actually blessing in disguise. [This message has been edited by Finalfantasy (edited December 01, 1999).]
Hey will -- the last 5 minutes of the game is when i'll be happiest that Chuck is gone! he's a total liability down the stretch! jacks 3s, bricks free throws and slows the offense down so much that half of the Rockets' possessions wind up as wild, beat the shot clock prayers. Here's the bottom line with Barkley, who along with Francis comprise the team's 2 best players: He thinks a win that he is "responsible" for is so much better than a team win that he takes stupid chances (witness the ridiculous 3s against Portland and Vancouver down the stretch) that reduce the likelihood of a Rocket victory overall but increase the likelihood of a Chuckwagon-driven Rocket victory. And that SUCKS. [This message has been edited by JR (edited December 01, 1999).]
Jeez, Like no one on the Rockets has jacked up stupid 3's and other low pewrcentage shots before. I am sick of these inane and redundant remarks about Barkley jacking threes. Give that one a rest already will ya? ------------------ When a man stands for nothing, he'll fall for anything.
Hey JT. I don't know about your philosophy of basketball, but taking a 3 while being open is not ridiculous ok? Had those 3s went in, guys will be kissing CB's ass right now.
Had those threes gone in, he would not be a "chunky three point specialist who hits 20% beyond the arc," which he is. CBrownFanClub
hey finalfant -- it's JR, not JT -- oh, wait, that's your job. Barkley taking 3s is ridiculous no matter when it happens, but particularly late in close games. But that's just one way he tries to take the limelight and "put the team on his back," in his own words. That's the deal with him, though. He has to be the center of attention, so he says, "I guess I've got to just do more, take over, blah blah blah" when what he really needs to do is play smart basketball with the other 4 guys on the floor. And my main point was that he would rather win the game himself than have the team as a whole win the game, which of course is detrimental in a team game like basketball.
I still have to give CB credit for shutting down Obinna Ekize by handing him 5 fouls in 10 minutes, just let him know what Charles Barkley can do to him. Wallace and Grant are like kindergarten students facing CB. Drawing fouls are the best defense, and CB is superb at that. Oh my god, he is becoming like a defense specialist gradually in my list!
Nah, JR, sometimes when you teammates shot like crap a guy has to step up and score some points, in the Portland game no one could hit a shot. In the Vancouver game no one is sure if Rudy said anything like "who is open who hit the three." in the timeout. If Rudy can't just tell CB stop shooting 3s the it's his fault, not CB's, after all it is the coach's job. No one knows so chill out.
Great post, Barzilla. It wasn't Chuck's fault that we were losing after the trade. His skills just don't miz well with Hakeem's. Both guys like to park it in the left block. And since both couldn't park there the other would just float around in the lane. It wasn't a good mix for the team. Even today, things are somewhat better for the Rox when either Chuck or Hakeem are on the bench. I also like the theory about acquiring superstars. That is on the money. You only need 2. And they have to supply floor balance by being able to play on opposite sides of the court. The other players should be good role players. Too many guys trying to do too much is disaster. I guess we should also be grateful that Jordan taught Pippen the value of lifting weights daily so that Pippen could teach it to Charles who is now teaching it to Francis. Funny, how that works. [This message has been edited by JeffB (edited December 01, 1999).]
hey final -- i never said i thought barkley was the entire problem! Rudy might never have told Charles to stop jacking threes, i don't know. I do know that our best end-of-game play so far this year was Francis coming off a pick with 5 seconds left and getting a wide open look, and it was not after a Rockets timeout. Saved from Rudy's last-minute "plays".
JR I want Francis to take the final shot as well, guess that's one thing we can agree upon. Jeff, I don't know if three great players together can't work out, first of all, there is the age and injuries factor, second of all, 3 great players need the coach's guidance to work well together. Who takes the final shot, who takes how many shots a game... things like that. Too bad, we had four hall of famers but we don't know how to use them. What a waste of time and talent.
Some notes 4chuckie... The Rox did acquire Barkley to help out with the Sonics. But before Barkley was in Houston the Rox were waxing the Jazz every year in the playoffs. Since Barkley, in two series the Rox have a combined 4 wins against the Jazz. I also know that the Rox were the only team with a winning percentage against the Michael Jordan Bulls. A winning percentage that I believe stood before Barkleys advent to the Rox.
CBFC- You have a point about the D. Barkley is not know for that. However I still will stand by if you can get a super star for 4 "role" players you do it. Esentially it may be the same trade Houston did w/ Portland for pip. Give up an unhappy star who wants a chance at rings for a minimal cost. In fact that may be a situation the rule can be tested about bringing in a superstar to an already good team. This may be a good test. Dreamshake: "I also know that the Rox were the only team with a winning percentage against the Michael Jordan Bulls. A winning percentage that I believe stood before Barkleys advent to the Rox." First you may have got a point about the Jazz, but I don't believe it is Barkley's fault the Jazz have become a better team, while we have not. But, I stated we needed to stay on top of the Bulls with a good PF (Rodman). Before Rodman, Houston had a far superior inside game, while the Buls countered with MJ-Pip, which made a tough match up for both teams. However Chicago matched up much better with Rodman. Besides, although I hate to go here, but the Rockets, like everyone else, never got over on Jordan in his prime, in the playoffs. As soon as Jordan came back for a full year, I think everyone recognized they had to get better, including the defending champ Rockets. One question I have- what was the timing of Rodman to the Bulls and Chuck to the Rockets? That could blow my theory about matchups, but not getting over on the Bulls in the playoffs.
All Charles Barkley does is go out on the court and put the lie to his detractors on a regular basis -- damn near every night, and certainly more often than Hakeem Olajuwon (the greatest Rocket of all time) or any other Rocket does these days. Who's that fat-butted, no-dedication role model who's been summoning Steve Francis to the weight room every morning, according to Francis? Not Scottie Pippen. You Barkley bashers can't be refuted with words. Your conversion will come too late, when you notice Chuck's absence on the boards and in the final minutes of each game next year.
So what you guys are saying is asDream,Drexler and CB's skills keep declining due to their age, whenever the Rockets lose it's because of CB's and the trade's fault, on the premise that they lessened team chemistry, very very persuasive indeed. Where is the great team chemistry when the Rockets been swept by the Supersonics? Why other factors such as coaching and injuries has to be left out talking about the performance of the Dream-Barkley era? Wanna play labeling game? Those who put their nosesunder Charles ******* in order to find his farting pattern as basis to bash him are the "Barkleys' ass parasite".
Finalfantasy, Get a grip. You're sitting here flying insults Clyde Drexler's way for no real reason. The whole point of this post to begin with is that acquring "superstars" goes way beyond the players you actually trade for them. Clyde and Charles' styles don't mix. Obviously, you are in favor of of Charles and I respect that, but let's assume a world where Clyde is still playing basketball. 1. Any assumptions you make about getting Pippen, cap room et al are null and void unless Clyde decides to retire. Okay Rocket fans, here's your choice: Pippen or Drexler? 2. Also consider, that most of the 1998 draft was spent filling the two hole. Had we allowed Elie to go and Drexler had decided to stay we might have gone in a different direction on draft day. All of this is moot however because is still fails to reach the point. Acquiring superstars is a more risky proposition than many realize. These players have to gell on the court and off the court with the rest of the team or you will be forced into a star vs star decision. No one wants that. ------------------ Rockets When? Rockets When?
