Actually.. he's probably more athletic than kobe... definitely more athletic than TMac... when they were both in Toronto, VC came up first in all athletic categories except 1... which was led by Tmac... I think they are about the same height plus/minus an inch.. but Carter is definitely stronger/bulkier...
Athletically, Carter > than anyone, probably who;s ever played. Way better than T-Mac, who'se better than Kobe. I want to remind people of something. Before he got hurt ( and he;s coming back now) Carter was simply the best 1 on 1 player in the game. At the Olympics, Rudy T had them all play each other 1 on 1 in a round robin ( winner advances, etc.) to determine who would be The Man for the Olympic Team, without any egos being hurt. Carter destroyed everyone. He played Garnett in the finals, and KG said later that it wasn't even close, and he couldn;t believe how much better Carter was than everyone else. There are 4 things which have stood in Carter's way on the floor, and 1 or 2 off of it. Some of them are his fault, some not, and some a combination. On: 1) Injuries. 2) Ongoing feud with refs. 3) Being double and tripled all the time because of no 2nd star. 4) Indecision about how to be The Man. Off: 1) Media backlash after inital lovefest, esecially after making many big name pundits look bad by staying in Toronto. 2) His mother and other secondary focuses. The injuries were abnormal he'd never had any before the knee) and much of the secondary ones were caused by trying to play through the first injury or coming back too soon. He aggravates the situation by not being a gym guy; Freaky as it is, Carter's physique and skills come mostly from natural talent; he works on his game, but not really his body. He seems to be recovering fine, but you never know with knees. The ref thing is in some ways entirely his fault, in other ways not his fault at all. He never got the star calls, and he used to whine about it; not really say anything in the press, or take techs, but pout and make faces and moan a lot. Because of that, and because of the press backlash mentioned above, he soon went from not getting the star calls to getting regularly screwed. I mean he gets fewer calls than most role players. He gets hammered a lot, and rarely gets the call. Hakeem never really got calls commesurate with his status, but he never got downright screwed like Carter does. This is a lot of what contributes to the image that he doesn't drive anymore; it's hard to drive and get hammered time after time when you get something out of it; Carter usually has to make a circus shot while getting hacked for no And 1, or he gets 'stripped' or 'blocked' and the ball goes the other way. At this point the only solutions are A) For the league to interven with the refs, which likely won't happen ( the Raps have sent complaints with videotapes to the league several times; no real change) or for Carter to go a few months, getting hammered and not getting the calls, and NOT pouting. Easier to say than to do. 3) Being doubled and tripled. This is The greatest reason he doesn't drive anymore: Carter is, far more than Kobe and T-Mac, the best combination of shoot and drive player in the game. Before he got hurt, and just as the constant doubles were becoming the norm, Carter had become a 40% plus 3pt shooter. Think about that. His driving/dunking ability, AND hitting better from the outside than Kobe, McGrady, Jordan or Iverson ever came close to. Talk about unstoppable. So teams stopped trying to stop him single handed. It really began in the first Kinics series, and after McGrady left, and especially after Carter carried his team to the EC Semis, this is how Carter is played on almost any play: One may up tight, to contest his shot and overplay drive to the right. 2nd man about 5-8 feet behind 1st to automatically be there if/when Carter beats 1st man. Often a 3rd is drifting off of his man to also contest the drive. That's normal, everday defense against Carter. He's never had anyone who has made teams pay enough for doing it. Just remember how the Rockets played him; seemed an unusal defesne for us, but it's status quo for Carter. Maybe Bosh will change that. 4) This is all Carter. He's not by nature a 'The Man" type; he's very much a Dean Smith type of player, who is more suited by personality to being a team player. The problem is his natural gifts and salary say otherwise. So he's contantly trying to find a balance between being a Jordan type and being a Worthy type. Butch Carter knew how to make him go ( and had McGrady as a balance) but Wilkens idea of coaching was to just roll the ball out and say play, and Carter got lost, especially after the team played without him for a while, he came back to guys like Antonia Davis who were hinting that Carter should just fit in, and while a Jordan or Bird would have said 'Screw that, give me the ball and get out of the way!" Carter tried to go along. Then others would say he needed to step up, and he;d try that, etc. Last year Smith said Carter is The Man, perdio, and Carter played like it. People don;t realize how well Carter played last year, aside from a brief period with minor injuries, and playing for 1/2 the year without anyone else who could make jumpers. Where he goes from here depends on who his coach is. The right coach, and a healthy body, and look out. The off the court stuff is pretty evident: Unlike Jordan, Carter isn;t driven by basketball alone, and that makes him a healthier person, but a less dedicated player. Not that he's lazy, just that he lacks that extra drive. He hs gotten more of it, though, over the years, and because of all the trials. The media thing is so obvious, and has been dealt wth elsewhere, and MJ has something to do with it as well. But put it this way; Kevin Garnett is probably recognized as the greatest natural talent in the game. Lebron is up there. Kobe is up there. T-Mac is up there...Carter is probably better than all of them, talent and athletic wise. When on, he's the best dunker, a 40% plus 3 pt shooter, an excellent playmaker, has a lightning 1st step and crossover and incredible balance in mid air for circus shots. He can and at times does play excellent defense. It's up to him, largely. I'll say this: If everyone in the league aside from centers ( different types) were healthy and played to their best, I;d take Carter over any of them, to start my team. I just don;t know if he can or will be either healthy or playing his best all of the time. Bosh's development will help. Hopefully the draft pick will also help, and Rose and Mashall for a full year will help too. The next coach is the big X factor. But I will say this; Carter has way too much talent and skill to write him off the way many have.
Does athleticism include quickness? Because Vince Carter is not that quick. One thing I always notice is that he can't get by his man consistently and settles for jumpers and fadeaways. But is he more explosive than anyone? Oh yeah. Easily. Out of Vince, McGrady, and Kobe, Kobe is the least explosive but the most consistent at getting by his man.
Vince Carter isn't that good going by his man, but he isn't as good a ball handler as Kobe and McGrady, and that may have something to do with that.
Are you kidding me? He's one of the best, if not the best, at getting by his man. You're pointing at his handles as a weakness, yet I see neither Kobe or McGrady having anything overly better -McGrady possibly even worse. Carter, has above-average handles, just watch the clips, the crossovers he performs are just ankle-breaking. Getting by his man is a strength; why else was he so dominant in the 1;1 tournament MacBeth mentioned? Beating even the much larger -and nearly as quick- opponents like Garnett.
Mr.C and pg: I have to disagree. His first step is incredible. I think he has less general lateral quickness than Jordan at his best, but it's as good as Kobe's and better than T-Mac's. ( That, imo is Kobe's strength). If you watch him often, you'll see he easily beats men 1 on 1, but often does the little fake as if to beat him and pulls up/fades away, because after his man there's another man there already, so what;s the point.
I think Kobe's advanatage over Vince is that he's a lot smarter, more experienced, and really KNOWS the game of basketball better. He's WAY more dedicated. As a natural talent, Vince may be better.. But does that really matter? Kobe has placed himself well above Vince. I think T-Mac has made himself better than Vince as well. I wouldn't say he's more explosive than Vince, but he's a much smoother - he's got his own style. Before last season, he had 32/6.5/5.5 . Can Vince pour in 32 a night? Probably. Can he grab 6.5 rebounds? Maybe. Can he dish out 5.5 and only turn it over 2.6 times? Doubtful. Right now, Vince is not in Kobe/T-Mac's class. However, he's very capable of putting himself there, and all he has to do is carry his team. I really think that the RIGHT coach (Rudy T would be great) could push him over the hump. Bosh and Rose are good compliments. He needs to get into better shape in the offseason as well. He's in good shape, but not "best in the league" shape.
A) Carter has carried a team a lot further than either T-Mac or Kobe. B) I think Kobe's advantages over Carter are a greater desire ( agreed) and especially a 7 foot 350 lb center who lets Kobe get single and zero coverage, and provides an easy and effective target for pass offs. Have you seen Carter in the Olympics, or even in All Star games? He plays with other talent extremely well, and still stands out. Imagine what he;d have done with SHaq as a teammate. C) I agree that Carter's dedication does not match his ability. I think if it did he;d be better than Jordan. But he's not a dud in that department either: Remember his biggest weakness coming out of college? People forget this: couldn;t hit from the outside, all he could do was drive and dunk, etc. Remember? Rookie year 3 pt percentage: .288. What does he do? Next two years, hitting from the outside: .403, .408. Dropped to .387 and then .344, then as he got a little healthier, rose again last year to .386. And experts say he has perfect form on his shot ( though I think in midrange he needs to go straight up more than fading left or right). That's a result of work and dedication, no? Didn't come in shooting like that. How many .400 seasons has dedicated Kobe had, despite playing longer? Zero. Even including his horrible rookie year, Carter's average is better than Kobe's best year. Same holds true for T-Mac. Shooting is something you have or you develop with a lot of work. yes, Carter's exceptional athleticism makes that learning curve easier, but there's still some evidence of dedication too, isn;t there? D) The reason Carter's ability matters is that his obstacles to greatness are lesser than Kobe's or T-Mac's. If he gets more deicated, if he stays healthy, if he gets teammates and/or the right coach, etc. Not all need apply equally, but if some or all do, he'll be better than any of them. Will it happen? Dunno. Likely not all of those will fall in his favour. But the ones he can control already seem to be; his play last year was better than people know, considering that Toronto emphasized defense even more than the Rockets. We'll see. The two biggest obstacles, health and teammates, aren't up to him, so it's an open question.
I agree with you Sane that Kobe is smarter, understands the game of basketball better and is more dedicated compared to both Vince and TMac. And that's why he's the best wing player in the league. If you just look at the past couple seasons when Vince was injured, I agree with you that Tmac has been better. Everyone has to remember that Vince lost about 2+ seasons of development. Instead of trying to improve his game, he worked on healing his injuries, and I think that held him back. This is probably the first summer in a few seasons where he can actually improve his game, and I think he'll be able to be just as good as Tmac or even better. Will he ever avg 32 ppg for an entire season? I honestly don't think he will. He can, but he won't. He's too unselfish. 6-7 rbs and 6-7 assists per game is definitely a possiblility for him. He avg 5 assist a game this past season and the Raptors were the leagues worse offensive team. I also think he can avg 1.5 blocks a game once he's healthy. One very important thing you mentioned is getting the right coach to get him over the top.
