Vietnam sin drone

As a guy who was upset about someone suggesting he commit suicide I find it very ironic that you're using that quote. You do know the lines that follow that quote and what that soliquoy is about?

 

So what do you suggest that we should ignore it when our troops kill civillians or abuse prisoners? That since in every war troops have committed attrocities that its OK?

I don't see how that is honoring the troops. Our soldiers are by and far good, decent people who are highly disciplined because we as a society expect and hold them to a high standard.

 

I was wondering if anyone was going to catch that.

 

On the subject of Vietnam I was listening to a a forum today on Vietnam with key members of the 4 US Admins that dealt with Vietnam. It was disturbing how similar the same arguments that were made for going and staying in Vietnam are to the arguments we have today regarding Iraq.

 

Hell, what a way for me to learn Shakespeare.

 

I suggest that those who are breaking the law be tried and punished accordingly. I also suggest that we make it clear that the vast majority of our troops are not killing innocent people, and are fighting the war in a way that is consistent with their legitimate rules of engagement. If you didn't know any better, the news articles would tell you that our troops are rampaging across Iraq like Viking raiders.

 

Bull. The media has been very slow and very careful, to a fault, about reporting the few atrocities (and they were atrocities) they have reported. Both Haditha and Abu Ghraib were known to the media long before they hit the papers. And even when they were reported, the war crimes were "balanced" by quotes on the other side saying these things were no big deal. Since then we've learned they were both a hellish big deal. The media was dragged kicking and screaming to report this stuff because they've been so cowed by attitudes like yours.

And even still you have the nerve to compare ones of us that would like to know when that tiny minority of our military is committing murder and torture -- do the detriment of our cause in Iraq -- and punish them for it to people who want to eliminate all Muslims or Arabs. I have never dissed the American military itself and no other liberal here has either, so stop implying we have. I, and other "libpigs" here only believe that murderers should be prosecuted, whatever their nationality. If you feel differently, let's argue that. But stop being dishonest and slanderous about what we've said here.

 

Considering that you have expressed an intentional predisposition for the literal interpretation of all speech previously, I guess I can see where that would be a problem.

Otherwise, it just looks like you're running the standard "blame the media" playbook, robotically, and not really very well.

Are you aware that an estimated 1,500 Iraqi civilians were killed in Baghdad -- just this month? That's 3 years plus after Mission Accomplished. I don't think most Americans realize this, despite the standard hackneyed charges about the media. I almost am out of energy to be upset about this kind of thing anymore, and that is really sad and shocking.

 

It's either John "Stumpy" Pepys or Peter "James" Bond. Can't tell which from that pic.

 

Unfortunately sensational stories get more attention and troops committing attrocities are sensational. As I've said before though I don't get the sense that overall the media has been painting our troops as Viking raiders. There's plenty of stories about the bravery and good work that our troops are doing. Those just don't get as much attention as sensational stories.

A related situation is with the portrayal of Muslims in Western press. Sensational stories regarding Muslim terrorists and extremists get more attention while the vast majority of Muslims less.

Depending on the lense you're looking through you can easily make an argument that the media is biased one way or the other. I don't think so and I certainly don't think we should ignore stories when our troops behave less than honorably or when Muslims commit terroristic acts.

 

I was dropping off drycleaning the other day and a guy was getting patches sewn on to his uniform. He was a Marine from Spring Texas who has volunteered to go back to Iraq for his third tour of duty.

He said the first time he came back, there was a bunch of support the troops stuff and people were proud of him. He said that now he can't even believe the number of media outlets that seem like they are out to get him and his fellow soldiers.

He said that being in Iraq is scary and things are not as secure as they should be, but he said it is so much better than it was, its is ridiculous. And nobody here knows.

His unit has personally overseen the building of 25 new schools, including high schools for girls that were not allowed to go to school past grade school before. Since he has been there, the marines have added over 300 fully functioning and well attended schools, restored power to 85% of the population...many of whom did not have power before the war, have created new water and septic systems for entire towns that never had anything before, ect. He said the list is a mile long of all the great things going on in Iraq and you never hear about any of it in the US.

He said that 99% of the people he meets are great people that like Americans and are glad they came. They hate the foreign terrorists and want the Marines to go kick their butts. He said they do a good portion of that too. He said that everybody he talks to is positive about the future and especially their children's future. They were not thrilled about having their kids grow up under the leadership of Saddam's sons and now they have a chance to really have a true free future under a democratic nation.

He can't wait to get back and help build Iraq up. He was so positive it was overwhelming.

I thanked him and paid his bill for him to get his stuff put on his uniform...I got his military address and my wife, mother and I are putting together care packages for his unit.

By the way:

http://adoptaplatoon.org/new/

 

I don't know about the rest of your post, but this part isn't true. Hussein was responsible for many nasty things, the nastiest committed while he was being supported by the west, but repression of women was never one of them. Also, the reason that a lot of stuff wasn't/isn't working in Iraq is because of the destruction of Iraq's entire civilian infrastructure during the Gulf War by the US and then a decade or so of sanctions kept in place by the west that further decimated that infrastructure and also led to over a million deaths. Plus, it's been over 3 years and hundreds of billions of dollars have been spent, one would expect some tangible results here and there. Last, this whole notion of "foreign" fighters is quite silly. The US and others have the nerve to call Arabs "foreign" fighters when they're the true foreigners.

 

I didn't call them foreigners...the Iraqi people he is talking to called all the Jordainians, Syrians, Saudis, ect. that are coming into their country and blowing them up foreigners. They LIKE the US soldiers. They want them to be there. Every person he talks to told him to tell his commander..."Don't leave us, stay and help." They are glad Saddam is gone. The people who live there are saying this.

And I'm going to believe this guy that was actually there 3 weeks ago about the schools. He said that after middle school, many girls were married off and did not have high schools for girls. Now they are building them.

 

The Pentagon itself has stated that there are very few foreign fighters in Iraq. Nor would there be, it's quite obvious (and the US milatary has recognized) that what's going on right now is an anarchic ethnic/religious civil war rather than an us vs. them insurgency.

I'm going to believe the Pentagon over an enlisted man you met at the dry cleaners.

I don't doubt that you met t his guy, nor do I doubt that he told you what he did, but most available evidence, such as public opinion polls, internal US estimates and reports, and above all: tens of thousands of dead bodies. (This bears repeating: last month, 3 years in, was the deadliest month of civilian casualties yet) indicates that he doesn't have a good view of the forest.

I know you're going to come back with "media doesn't report good news"; I've read that quite frequently the media isn't allowed to do so, as the "good news" people get targeted by insurgents and taken down. Since we're dealing in anectdotal evidence, I've read that the ABC crew that was blown up by an IED last week (in what has been the deadliest war for journalists in a long time) was on their way to cover a "good news" story - they just got blown up by a bomb on the way there. That should tell you something.

 

For what it's worth, this information from www.usaid.gov says that 30% of Iraqi girls of high school age were enrolled in school compared to 42% of boys. This implies that the girls are in some sort of high school. This appears to be as of September 2005.

http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/accomplishments/education.html

 

You should go to historians and scholars for info on Iraq not occupying troops in relation to women under Saddam...I'm sure there are just as many if not more Iraqis who want them to leave and are tired of US troops blowing them up as well. Maybe your friend should go and speak to the families of the Haditha victims or anybody who's had a friend or relative killed by US troops.

 

Blah, blah, blah...I get it. The United States is evil, everything we do is horrible, our troops are all murderers. Right, got it.

 

No. What you need to "get" is that there are two sides to every story, and the truth always lies somewhere in between.

 

Nice response...I guess the guy at the dry cleaners had a profound effect on you...I'm sure if a referendum were to be held in Iraq an overwhelming majority of Iraqis would want the so-called coalition of the willing to get the hell out their country...Also, your new friend is still wrong about girls being denied an education under Saddam Hussein...Maybe you can include my words and SamFisher's words above in one of those care packages you'll be sending.

 

Killed by who? I'm pretty sure that a good portion of the civilian casualties are killed by the insurgents/terrorists. Attributing those killed by the enemy to the American military (implicitly, since we are talking about the American military here) is just the kind of thing I am referring to.