[Video] Kevin Martin scores 32 in first half vs. Cavs

Assuming we're talking about a straight swap, I'd say that Ray Allen, Stephen Jackson, and Rudy Gay are clearly better overall than Kevin Martin. Monta Ellis might sneak in there too.

Knowing that we're on the verge of rebuilding, the only one I'd want would be Rudy Gay. Listing guys who are more overpaid than Martin doesn't make him any less overpaid in my eyes. Yeah, I'd prefer him to quite a few of those guys on that list.. but it doesn't mean I suddenly think $11M is worth it for someone I view as not being able to be the #2 or #3 on a championship team. It's the same idea as claiming Martin is not that injury prone by citing Yao's missed games.

 

Wow...haters keep hating.
Quit subscribing to the mythical "clutch" stat and realize that points you score in the early going counts towards the final score equally ultimately.

It's also frustrating how some of you brush off the "efficiency" as some random stat when it directly corresponds to winning. Kind of the same way you brush off the 23 ppg as worthless because they didn't all happen in the 4th quarter.

As for defense, it's clear who we're missing...it's Yao, and no perimeter defensive lockdown SG would be able to save our defense regardless until Yao or some other rim defender is back.

 

Oh now we are on the verge of rebuilding?

 

The Rockets are 9th overall in offensive efficiency. Their record is 9-14. Exactly where is the correlation to winning?

The guy you've assembled this whole "offensively efficient" team for can't stay on the floor. You know, the guy that Aaron Brooks perfectly compliments and is the reason he should be starting? He's expiring at the end of the year. Shane Battier, the "glue guy", is expiring at the end of the year. We're 9-14.

How do you not see a possible rebuilding in the near future?

 

You misunderstand the point of that post. I was not trying to list guys "more overpaid", but rather just putting into perspective other guys in that rough salary range. I am also not saying Martin is better than all of them. Looking at that list, I think it is you who have been overrating what a $11 million dollar player should be.

 

Seriously? Please read up on the definition of "correlation". Let me just give you a hint...the number of points you score might be "positively correlated" with the amount of games you win.

 

I guess so. For that much, I expect a guy who could be a solid #2 or #3 on a championship level team. I just don't see that in Kevin.. he's not well-rounded enough.

That's weird.. Phoenix is leading the league in scoring and yet not in the playoffs. Milwaukee is last in the league in scoring yet the 8th seed in the playoffs. Bizarre.

It's almost as if there should be some sort of definable stat for defense to include in your formula to calculate the number of games you should win. If only... oh well. You're right -- all that matters is offense.

 

Did I say that all that matters is offense? Again, check up on the definition of "correlation"

And way to go finding one team out there, bravo.
Let's see...these are the top 10 teams in offensive efficiency (Hollinger):
1. Spurs
2. Lakers
3. Suns
4. Heat
5. Knicks
6. Celtics
7. Mavericks
8. Nuggets
9. Jazz
10. Hawks.

How many of these teams are currently playoff teams? Yeah, I think there might be a correlation there.

 

It is not me, not you, not 1 GM, not 1 agent, etc, that sets someones value, the market does, even if not directly.

Rudy Gay did not get payed because the Grizz wanted, not because his agent wanted, but because they understood that if he hits the Free agency market, there were teams that would offer huge amounts of money, and they decided that 16M, on average, per year was a very fair value.

If by any chance Gay wanted 20M, the Grizz would simply let him go, and let the market, directly, decide his value.

That list perfectly describes that there is NO WAY Martin is overpaid. If there are 100 players with his salary, and 50 are worst players then him, there is no way he is overpaid, the majority of players that are paid the same, are equal or less skilled then him, so the market determines his value.

You can question the other teams ability to understand someones value, but in the end, those teams that overpaid for those players, will again overpay for your player if he hits the open market, so GMs have to try and predict what other teams would offer, a clear example of this is Scola.... the Nets would offer a huge salary for him, so we anticipated and made a good business move.

PeAcE

 

And yet the team that has scored the most points in the league isn't in the playoffs.

And yet the team that has scored the least points in the league is in the playoffs.

Scoring is a factor in winning, of course. But it's naive to sit here and flaunt offensive efficiency stats without also considering the defensive side of the ball, which has been the whole point of my argument in this thread. In fact, one could argue that defensive 'efficiency' has a GREATER impact. The highest rated non-playoff team in the defensive efficiency category is 13th (Charlotte). The highest rated non-playoff team in the offensive efficiency category is 3rd (Phoenix).

Kevin Martin, offensively very 'efficient', defensively very 'inefficient'.. not a star player. And with that, I'm out. Great half, Kevin -- hopefully you can start scoring when it matters in the 4th quarter too.

 

You keep throwing around this 9-14 like it actually means something, it doesnt.

You seem to be completely out of sync of how the organization is running and what it is trying to build. You are basing all of your opinions on an extremely small sample size which you percieve as the finished product of what we have built in the past 3 years. It just isn't as simple as you are trying to make it out to be.

-The organization picked a system and a coach.

-The organization has gathered some players to fill that system.

-Key players have unfortunately missed considerable time, making it difficult to to measure the success of the system.

-The GM has positioned himself with a trove of assets and expirings to add a major piece.

-The GM is waiting for the opportunity to use those pieces and gather something significant to add to the team.

-The GM has developed a backup plan by targeting youth which could be developed into the major pieces down the line, if that major piece is unattainable.

-In the meantime the coach has begun developing the youth as long term pieces into the system.

-Meanwhile impatient fans second guess every move and coach decision thinking thier short term ideas are flawless.

The organization knows what it is doing. They have a plan and they are sticking too it. Thinking rebuilding is imminient is just ignorant. They are in year three of a rebuilding plan already. They acquired pieces to fill that plan as recently as this past offseason.

And as for this whole Kevin Martin superstar nonsense, get past it. Anyone who claims Martin is useless because he cant close out games is thinking like a fan and not a coach. Martin has a purpose and he performs that purpose well. The only problem is people expect too much from him. People expect Battier to take people off the dribble, thats not his purpose, people expect Brooks to create offense, thats not his purpose.

Its pretty obvious, if you can't see the big picture, theres no way for you to understand or accept the team in its incomplete form.

 

Totally agree. I think RA lets Martin cool off too much. by the time he is reinserted in the 4th qtr, there's like 4 min. and everyone says martin disappeared. I've watched him a lot and he's an elite scoring machine ! He's not Houston's problem....!

 

Who the hell are you. Get a new handle.

 

Not 40 points yesterday with Brooks on the court.

 

Just about to say this. After one of your team-mate get the rebound, you just run to your basket, and they will throw long bomb accurate passes to you upfront wherever you are for the cherry pick :grin: :grin: Martin for A+ Grade

 

Ill be impressed when he drops 32 in the second half!

 

Took a quick look at the video and counted 11 total dribbles taken by Kevin Martin in scoring 32 points on 11 made fgs and 9 made fts. The 11 dribbles didn't include 3 he took in the video while brining the ball up the court (he pased, then got it back for a J) and 3 he took before taking one of his FTs. 5 of his dribbles were on an early post-up opportunity, otherwise, the rest of his shots/fouls drawn came from either 0 or 1 dribble.

This isn't some spot-up shooter (think Battier) not having to dribble the ball, either, the guy got the line 10 times while taking 11 dribbles.

The team of course would be much better off if they have a Kobe/Lebron/Dirk/Manu/Nash/CP-type true superstar creator, but even with such a player on board, it is good to have a "complementary scorer" making efficient use of shot clocks and possessions.

 

I know I said I was gone from this thread, last one I promise:

1. I never said Kevin Martin was useless, just that he wasn't a star and couldn't be a #2 or #3 on a championship team.

2. Trove of assets? Is Darryl Morey paying you? We have very little valuable assets. Jordan Hill is an average role player right now, our ONE Knicks pick is worth less and less with each game, Chase Budinger/Jermaine Taylor have no trade value, and it's going to be hard to sell teams on Patrick Patterson when he isn't even cracking the rotation. It's time to take a look at reality. The only thing we have of real value right now is Aaron Brooks and our potential lottery pick this year.

3. The GM is waiting for the opportune time? Carmelo Anthony? Hello? If there was EVER an opportune time, it would be right now. So why aren't we mentioned as a favorite landing spot? Oh right, because our 'assets' don't come close to matching up with the Knicks' or Nets.

4. Backup plan of youth to be developed? Where are they? I know you're not talking about Jordan Hill or Chase Budinger. I guess we should get excited about Patterson's Rio Grande Valley numbers? "Don't worry guys, I know we can't land Carmelo.. but PPat is dropping 20 a night in the NBDL!" Come on.

5. If you think Chase Budinger, Jordan Hill and Jermaine Taylor are going to be the future of this team, I'm not sure I want to stick around for it. All three of them are role players at best. I've never seen PPat play in the NBA so I can't make a judgment on him, but I'm not going to go crazy over NBDL numbers.

6. Forgive me for expecting Martin to be able to score in the fourth quarter. I didn't realize that he was only brought in to draw fouls and shoot spot up jumpers for three quarters. I guess I expected more from a basketball player than that - my bad.

7. If we're in year three of a rebuilding plan, we're in bigger trouble than you or I could imagine. If Darryl Morey said three years ago that we're on a 3 year rebuilding plan, he's done an awful job. The Minnesota Timberwolves have a brighter future than we do right now -- Beasley, Love, and Rubio are three young assets that trump any assets we have by a large margin. Say a superstar does become available -- you think they'd trade him for Jordan Hill before they would Kevin Love? For Chase Budinger before Michael Beasley? The only one being ignorant is you.

You are right that the current team is incomplete because they have been without Yao and Brooks. I admit that. But I also think it's dumb to expect Yao to play a big role in our future.. the writing is on the wall for him. He couldn't even stay healthy when he's only playing 25 minutes a night and skipping back-to-backs. You really expect me to pencil him into our future for the next three to four years?

I see the big picture just fine -- it seems as if you're caught up in the present 'hope'. You are overvaluing our 'assets' in a big way. A year ago, I would have agreed completely with you. However, I see the current reality: Jordan Hill isn't as good as we thought, Chase Budinger isn't getting any better, and our Knicks pick(-s) we thought would put us over the top in trade talks are looking more and more useless. We're so desperate to get Carmelo that we'd even be willing to trade for him without an extension, and yet we STILL can't even get into advanced talks with them.

I don't blame Denver -- I'd rather have Favors or Galinari/Fields over Jordan Hill and Chase Budinger too.

Feel free to continue thinking we have 'major assets' to acquire a star with though.

 

I dont think Martin's contract is an issue with people. There isn't much fuss of "This is ALL we're getting out of 11 mil?" out there. Pretty much his game, team record, and what people see with their eyes speaks for itself. He validates the advanced stat watchers and game watchers. Efficiency is nice, now translate it into wins.

 

his jab and shot fakes are just awesome, and shows amazing smarts, he gets the defender where he wants, them over committed to shot or drive and then punishes them.... love it