i design a bi-monthly magazine and basically have unlimited vacations. as long as the mag meets deadline i get paid. i'm paid weekly whether i work or not, it's just a matter of fulfilling my responsibilities which usually average about 18 hours a week. the rest of the time i hang out with my wife and kids, make art, play golf, and travel. the job also pays health insurance for the whole family.
I work in the tech industry and based on my length of employment get 176 hours + 2 employee choice days at the beginning of each year +13 paid holidays.
I think what is interesting is all you guys are talking about tech jobs and corporate jobs. In most European countries from what I understand, the 20-30 days off each year applies to ALL jobs. That means you get those if you work for a fast food restaurant or if you are the VP of a corporation. I believe it even applies to part-time work in some countries. If you work a low-wage job in America, it is almost impossible to get time off, let alone PAID time off. Big difference.
Heh, funny this should come up.. I just saw an episode of the Awful Truth that pointed out the glaring difference between workers alloted vacation days in the US and other countries. A waitress in Germany gets like 6 weeks paid vacation, standard.. or something like that..
That's it....I'm moving overseas. I also work in the tech field, and I get 2 weeks per year, not including paid holidays. I also get 7 days off to go to training.
Exactly. I think part of the reason is that most of the companies in Europe are in the unions. For instance, in Germany, most of the companies I know of are member of EG Metal (the biggest union), and all the public services belong to the second biggest union. Those unions are very strong, so the workers tech or non-tech are getting great benefits. But sometimes, I feel the unions are too strong, which makes the industry less competitive in the global market.
Probably the biggest difference between Europe and America is that Europeans demand high standards while we demand low costs.
Too true. In the private sector, if you're with a typical company long enough to get more than 2 weeks (10 paid days) a year, you're very likely to be pressured not to take those weeks (3 or 4) in one stretch. As a result, most American workers, even those rare ones with extended vacation time, never get the time off in one grand chunk like Europeans. I think it's a damn shame. During a typical American vacation, by the time you're really starting to unwind, it's time to go back to the grind. On several trips to Europe, I've had conversations with Europeans that frequently went like this... (in an English pub, for example) "So, mate, you really have 2 cars, 3 tv's, live in a neighborhood where everyone has a front and backyard with their own house? That's marvelous! How much vacation time do you have? You said you were traveling here for a few months." "We are, but we had to quit our jobs to do it." "You what?? Quit your jobs?" "Yes. We couldn't get more than 2-3 weeks off, and it hardly seemed worth coming over here for such a short trip, not to us." "You're kidding! Two or three weeks? Do you mean at one time?" "No, not at one time, for the whole year." "Bloody hell! I was envious of all the things you have at home, but not any more. What's the point of working your arse off if you don't get time to enjoy life?" "Agree there, buddy. How much time off do you get?" "Six weeks. I get a solid month off at one time and we go to the south of Spain and bake on the beach the whole time. It's marvelous!" "WOW!!! " And so it goes. I had these kinds of conversations all over Europe. The time off varied a little, but not much. And, before some of you start saying how much higher our standard of living is, and so on, I found that the Europeans tended to eat much better food, had nice places to live, even if they weren't quite like ours, had plenty of money for those vacations they took, seemed very happy, and, forgive me, ladies, there were gorgeous women all over the place. I was envious then and I'm still envious. It's a matter of faith among many Americans that we have the highest standard of living, and live in the best country in the world. I can tell you that there are many countries where the people live as well, or better, than we do. There is more to life than having 3 cars, 4 tv's, and a nice yard. Believe me.
Why do vacations hate America? Sorry -- I couldn't resist. My job doesn't count. It's very self-paced. I get paid on a nine-month schedule, so I get the unpaid summer "off." If I don't publish research papers (not easy), then I perish, but grants can pay the summer months for extra salary. Gets very confusing sometimes actually. I'm also in a union, but unions have mostly been crushed in this country. A certain idolized president was a big part of that, and now many average Joes think unions are just selfish and evil, while fat CEO types are just hard-working. Go figure. I'm not saying unions are simple or all good, but they ain't all bad. They brought you the forty-hour work week, (which we've now gleefully kicked to the curb, but still).
all of this is fantastic. but are we all really ready to pay for all of this? where are the cultural relativists who will tell us that we can't judge one culture as better than another? that america's culture related to productivity is no better or worse than europe's?
Hey, I'll bite. I've honestly talked to a good number of Europeans who love the American work ethic and move here (or want to move here) to be part of it. A friend in Germany is getting up there in years and he's pissed that the goverment will *force* him to retire at 65. He can't keep running his research lab even if he wants to. I think ours is a good culture if you love your job. But if you love your non-work life a lot more than your work, then it sucks, no? This is overly simple, but there are two sides to the coin. This BBS aside, I love working hard. So does Mrs. B-Bob, luckily. We work about the same amount. edit: whoops, forgot Ray.
well, that's great. so if you value hard work, live in america. if you don't, go somewhere else? because i'm pretty convinced it's going to be a hard sell to the american taxpayer, otherwise. not sure if i'm real interested in some Cultural Ministry policing office buildings like in France. to each his own...but that's not for me.
Max, it's not so much about one culture being "better", than another. I'm not sure what a cultural relativist is... perhaps someone who makes excuses when comparing one culture to another? You know, "Yes, they have more time off but, dammit, we produce more than they do!" or "Sure, they have all those material things, but our quality of life is a hell of a lot better!" It works both ways. What really disturbs me, and B-Bob alluded to it, is that the trend is away from us having more time off. (unless one is laid off... forced vacation minus the money!) We are working more hours a week, more hours per day, and getting less time off to relax and enjoy life. It's a fact that someone with the inclination could document. So the trend here is towards more work, less time off, and for less money. The less money part is explained a couple of ways (by me, anyway). Because of productivity concerns (and a hell of a lot goes into those "productivity concerns"... talk about a can of worms!), we're being forced to work more for less. I'm constantly reading about companies laying people off and having their other employees take wage cuts or to pay more for fewer benefits, or both. They are told that more layoffs will follow if they don't. The threat of outsourcing is just one of many threats American workers face, and with the decline of the influence of unions, also mentioned by B-Bob, today's workers have little recourse. We're seeing people urged and, in many cases, forced to retire so that companies can hire cheaper, less experienced replacements. The idea that was the norm when I was a young guy as a teenager and in my 20's on into 30's, that you would work for the same company 20 or 30 years and then retire with a nice pension and benefits which, along with Social Security, gave you a reasonably good shot at a comfortable retirement, is now looked upon as a rediculous notion. How many times have folks here, many in the tech industry, heard the refrain, "Dude, the only way to move up the salary scale and make some bucks is to move from one job to another. If you stay with the same company, you're screwing yourself." That notion is certainly promoted by American big business, who shows no loyalty for longtime employees. Sure, there are exceptions, but that's all they are... exceptions. Even in government, which used to be a place of low wages/small salary increases offset by excellent benefits and job security... the trend is the same. Here is Texas, the trend is the same, except it's like the proverbial boulder rolling down a mountain creating an avalanche.
LOL! I remember making bad jokes during the 1980 elections: "The ticket for the Science Fiction fan... a raygun under every bush!" Hey, I said it was bad. It was just real ironic coming from me, being such a SF fan and ardent Democrat. Most of my jokes are things I find funny and other folks don't get. It's an inherited curse! My Dad did it all the time. Have a great long weekend, mc mark.
Hey what happened to that great big Smarty smile!!! Anyway, I think I was wrong to use the term "hard work." If you love your work enough to significantly sacrifice other parts of your life, America might be the better option for you. Yes, I believe that. Plenty of people work "hard" the world over. Many (not all) of them, however, take more time away from work.
Smarty works his butt off, B-Bob. Don't ever question that. He's no pinko horse. He's out there busting butt all the time. (until he's retired and just gets to have a lot of sex out on a ranch somewhere -- probably somewhere in his 4th year of life)
