Stockton was a great PG, but you can argue Steve Nash's best years were better than Stockton's best, right? I think body of work, Stockton wins, peak years, Nash wins... Everyone is forgetting about Isiah...because of how far he's fallen. But he was one heck of a PG, and won two championships, which is two more than Nash, Stockton or Kidd. I think it's hard to argue that Magic isn't the best PG ever, and that Oscar isn't number 2. Top 3 - Magic, Oscar, Isiah. You can argue about the rest of the top 10 after that, but I think Stockton, Nash and Kidd are obviously in. Cousy, Archibald, Wilkins, Payton, Cheeks, Frazier, Jerry West..... Hey, let's not forget about Calvin. He was never enough of a distributor to be a top 10 PG, but top 20 maybe. The dude could score. Only averaged less than 20 ppg twice in 13 seasons, and both of those times were over 19. His career PER is 18, which isn't bad, either. Calvin is probably the best, smallest player to ever play in the NBA, right?
I'm am a Jazz fan, but I don't think Malone or Stockton was the best ever, and I know Malone was a choker. But somebody forgot to tell Detroit that system basketball could never win a title.
The only thing I disagree with in your post is the part in bold (well, that and Calvin, but that's because I'm biased on that one so I'll let it be). I'm not certain you can put Magic at #1. Big O was phenomenal. I don't think you can go wrong with either one, but I'm not sure how you put one above the other either. Good call on Isiah though.
Stockton and Malone were both great players, and in the argument for GOAT at their positions. Oscar, Magic, Cooz; Duncan, McHale; Sure, I'm omitting guys at these positions but they were all among the GOATs. Barkley? Maybe, but a wee short IMHO. Same with Kidd.
system basketball indicts jerry sloan more than any coach since the 90's. to be more specific, every coach has a theory/approach to the game... a system they're fond of. jerry sloan has NEVER changed his gameplan/system to match his players. NEVER. we're seeing RA adapt this year with yao... good coaches will adapt their style of play based upon the team they're given based upon JVGs stubbornness you could argue he's as bad as sloan, but then again, he's coached a few different teams with measured success. coincidence that williams and boozer are the power players on the jazz? just as stockton and malone were? i think not. sloan wants players who will do exactly as he says. and he is trying to copy what he's done before... sloan wants guys who play his system. period. talent or no... see: raja bell, mo williams, sasha, mikki moore, snyder, deshawn stevenson, all players who are playing regular minutes for other teams. the jazz would love to have all of these guys maybe except for deshawn or sasha. sloan wouldn't have them because they weren't up to his standards? and just because malone gets the ball in the low post on that play doesn't mean they were running an iso play for malone. sloan expects that ball be passed to the open man every time. they rarely force feed anything. my original point was just that great teams need to know who's going to take over the game at the end. and the jazz never knew. they'd just run their motion play with passing and ball movement and wait for the open shot. and it worked alot. but karl malone wasn't prepared to win the big one. he is one of the biggest chokers ever. stockton was more clutch than him any day of the week. i think malone choked because he never learned that it was his responsibility to take over at the end. sloan and his system never taught karl to be the man in crunch time.
My response is, in the two years that Jordan retired, the Jazz didn't do squat either. Flopping aside(and I HATED this aspect of his game), I've always loved Stockton's playing style. As pointed out, he's a rich-man's Nash, who ran that offense to absolute perfection. The guy's picture should be next to the definition of a point guard. I think he's #2 all-time after Magic. As for Malone, I think he's a clear #2 to Duncan. I can even excuse the lack of rings, since Duncan never had to face a prime MJ or the 80s Celtics/Lakers(and lost repeatedly to the Shaq/Kobe Lakers). But Malone was helped tremendously by Stockton's great passing and by kneeing every defender who tries to contest his shots. While Duncan truly did everything for the Spurs on offense and defense.
Naaawwww man, come on. Stockton was just NUTS! The guy WASN'T HUMAN! Right here... let's compare peak years. I'd say for Nash that's gotta be last year (06-07) numbers-wise. For Stockton you could make some arguments, but it was probably 89-90. So let's look at the key numbers: Nash: 18.6 PTS, 53% FG, 45% 3PT, 0.8 STL, 11.6 AST, 3.8 TO Stockton: 17.2 PTS, 51% FG, 42% 3PT, 2.6 STL, 14.5 AST, 3.5 TO Sure, Nash gives you a little more shooting, but dear god man... a 4.1/1 assist-to-turnover ration for a SEASON!? And even ignoring the ridiculous gap in the steals numbers, you have to keep in mind that Stockton was a top defensive player, while Nash can't guard a chair. I have to think that anyone who takes Nash over Stockton, even based on "peak" years, is only thinking about one side of the ball. And even taking defense completely out of the equation... Stockton's effect on an offense just can't be estimated. Stockton could've made a star out of my grandma. And that's not to say Nash isn't great at making others better, because he does (Nash MAKES Amare, as I've said many times), but he just ain't Stockton. Oh, and don't forget my man KJ on that list of yours!
Look I hate the Jazz, but Stockton was awesome. Period. Better than Magic or Big O? That's debatable. He was never flashy, but he was definitely better than Steve Nash. Plus, he was a cold-blooded b*stard. Karla on the other hand...no thanks. A huge choker, and an idiot to boot. The guy was 285 lb of pure muscle, but flopped his ass off his whole career. That's disgusting and not worth even one iota of respect.
I'm not gonna get into analyzing every point guard from the past 100 years, but Magic > Stockton, so that should end that discussion about whether he was the best PG ever. While we are at it, Magic could play a lot of positions and Magic > Malone... so can we end that one too??
I feel so daunted that I failed your test. Or is that taunted that I felt your distaste? Get over it - those two had a synergy which transcended their ability to make best use of every nuance available within the game to produce two of the most remarkable careers in NBA history. One was dirty, the other dirtier. My enduring images are Stockton's knees and/or elbows maiming others - intentionally IMHO and Malone's faux warrior mentality when he undercut the wholesome Boki who reached out to try and escape injury, tearing Malone's jersey then Karl-baby wore it like a badge of honor. Seemingly kind of like your sophomoric riposte. I hate them both, and yet respect their games for the greatness they were.
Yes... because clearly, blurting out "Magic > Stockton" with no evidence at all to back you up ends the discussion.
You're high. Look in the archives and you'll find nothing but kind words from sloan for Bell, Williams, and Moore (I encourge you to try and prove me wrong.) At the time it seemed like the Suns overpayed for Bell and while he may have been worth it after all he's _exactly_ the kind of guy that Utah likes (good defense, smart, occasional cheap shots, etc...). Williams was Utah's 3rd point guard at the time who'd just completed his rookie year, and it didn't make sense to match the Bucks after they'd _just_ sigened Carlos Arroyo and Felipe Lopez. The fact that Williams turned out to be the best of the 3 just means that Utah evaluated talent poorly, not that Sloan didn't like him. As for Moore, he was, and probably remains, a journeyman and if he didn't fit in Sloan's system as you suggest, then I guess his system is pretty widely copied because Moore went through multiple teams before/after Utah before finally getting a longer deal from Kings... Snyder is a bust that hasn't found minutes on any team he's played on . His team count is now 3 but I'm predicting he'll hit 4 before he's out of the league entirely. Stevenson was given lots of chances with the Jazz and it's hard to argue that they were worse off after he left (note that he was also let go by the Magic). Sasha was given chances too, though perhaps not as much as Stevenson. Which 2 guard on Utah's roster would you boot to keep either one of them? Certainly not Brewer or Korver. Miles is a maybe, but he's 10 deep in the roster and makes nearly nothing. Anyway, stop making stuff up...
i'd boot giricek. oops, utah already did. this reply is a day late and a dollar short, but you are right that it may not have been sloan who said, "get rid of those players", thats a gm role, but the coach certainly influences that. THAT ASIDE: sloan always looks for players to plug-in. talent is less important to the jazz than somebody who won't turn the ball over (granted, a talent in and of itself). ie: jason hart, keith mccloud, this list could go on FOR CENTURIES. fact remains malone could never win the big one. he's a choker, always has and always will be. and sloan's system, while solid, doesn't teach his big guns to take over when they need to. it teaches them to pass to the open man. and you can't win the big one unless your stars impose their will on the game. end game.
