Your "arguments" lack logic. "Surely a feat like that would be impossible". Really? Why? Is it not possible that the Blue Jays got lucky two years in a row? (Joe Carter what?) Your comments about clutch performance are telling. You know nothing about baseball. Player don't "turn up the intensity". There is little statistical evidence for clutch performance. "Winning in the clutch" more accurately is just "getting hot for two weeks in October". You talk in vague, cliched terms, but offer no real factual evidence. I see that you've abandoned your faulty comparison to basketball. Recognize that in baseball, playoffs are mostly luck. Once you accept that fact, you can better understand why consistent regular season success is the best measure of a franchise. Oh, and Vernon Wells will be traded. Deal with it.
Kinda like pointing to titles that happened nearly two decades ago when your franchise has been a stinking pile of refuse ever since is a pathetic outcry from people who are fans of jokes like the Toronto Blue Jays.
Wow, you Astros fans sure are bitter. LOL. You come up with some creative (albeit pathetic) arguments to try to justify that your team doesn't suck. Championships don't matter? That is some of the strangest stuff I have ever heard. You're telling me that you would honestly prefer that your team finish with the best record over winning a championship? That's ridiculous. Last I heard, they don't give out trophies for getting the best record. October is where it counts. That's why they play the game. Any baseball player will tell you this. Are you telling me that Derek Jeter doesn't elevate his game in the post season? Or is that just coincidental too? I realize I will never win this battle because you obviously are too stubborn. "It's all just luck." You folks don't honestly believe that hogwash, do you? Why don't you accept my sig bet, Nomar? Or are you going to wuss out like a little b*tch?
Derek Jeter's career: Reg Ssn: .317 .388 .463 Playoffs: .314 .384 .479 That's "elevated" kinda in the same way Katy is "elevated" compared to Galveston. Anything else, frostback? I will accept your sigbet if it means you'll use your brain more quickly than your keyboard & I don't have to read more drivel from you trying to explain to us why the Astros, in your words, "suck".
There's more to baseball than averages. I was thinking more along the line of the big plays he always seems to come up with when it matters. Also, I don't think the Astros suck. I just think the Blue Jays are currently better, and have a better overall history due to their championships.
Derek Jeter Career Stats Regular Season - 0.314 BA / 0.388 OBP / 0.463 SLG Post-Season - 0.314 BA / 0.384 OBP / 0.479 SLG
No, you'll never win this battle because your initial argument is flawed and everything you've posted since in support of it is increasingly more pathetic drivel. (That's not a jab at you, just at your posts in this particular thread.) How does that help your argument? Your take is being shot down like a dog with no legs, dude. Since 1994, neither of our franchises have won a WS title. So, let's line up regular season record *and* postseason records and compare. Where do you think things will stand?
Even those all average out. That's why averages are an accepted means of evaluating a player, even among "sabremetricians". Hey, now this statement is very plausible. Which franchise is currently better, as you put it, is something that can be debated. On the overall history I see your point. Believe it or not, I'll still take the Astros--but it's because of those classic battles in '80 and '86 (both deemed among the best LCS in the history of LCS). I wish they had won them, however, and I can see where someone would say even one championship can lift a franchise above another--but there are plenty of folks, not just Astros fans (or Jazz fans) who disagree. Good post. (I have to say that to you after ripping the other one like I did.)
You know, to be honest, I don't even know what my original argument is anymore. Things have degenerated too much into a lame "my team is better than your team" war. I'm ashamed I succumbed to Nomar (a known troll) and his taunting. Here are my main points. If you don't agree, fine: - The trade proposal is ridiculous, and I don't think you all should get your hopes up about it. Toronto is in win-now mode. They are coming off a very good season and, believe it or not, have a decent chance to make the playoffs. I find it ignorant when people just say that they suck and that, "oh, they have no chance of making the playoffs in that division so they might as well trade away their best player for prospects." That makes no sense at all to me. I think a lot of you just automatically assumed that the Jays suck. This is not the Devil Rays we are talking about. The Jays are actually a good team these days, and even had a better record than the Astros this year. They won't give up Wells for less than market value unless they are eliminated from playoff contention. - This disrespect for championships, saying that they don't matter and whatnot, is something that I find very puzzling. When a team wins a title, they deserve respect. Simple as that. For example, the Cardinals are the reigning champions. Cards fans have every right to celebrate and there's no way I would feel comfortable saying anything bad about that team right now. They are the champs and we have to suck it up and bite our lips. I don't know why people would try to belittle another team's accomplishment. Makes them feel better about their own shortcomings, I guess. I always get pissed off when people say the Rockets two titles are meaningless because Jordan wasn't in the league. Who cares? They won, and deserve respect because of that. So what if they didn't have the best regular season record either year? They still won it all, and were the best team those years because of that. Same with the Cards this year. - I do think that 5 playoff appearances with two world championships is better than 9 playoff appearances without a world championship. But if you disagree, whatever. I'm not going to continue with the Astros vs Jays argument on a Houston BBS. Silly me for trying. - I'd still like to do the sig bet, especially with Nick, who seems to be my biggest opponent. I honestly think the Jays will be a better team next year than the Astros.
But what do records matter when apparently the only thing that matters is who wins the World Series... in your opinion, both the Blue Jays and the Astros were FAR worse than the St. Louis Cardinals last year. The thing that's hillarious is that the Cardinals BARELY held off the Astros... and had a worse record than the Blue Jays... and yet got hot at the right time and won the World Series. Had the Astros somehow made up 1.5 games over the course of a 162 game regular season, and still finished with a worse record than the Blue Jays, they likely have a strong chance at repeating the Cardinals fate. You seem to argue that the Blue Jays are a better team because they had a better record, but the Cardinals are a better team because they won the world series (with a worse record). Two big fallacies there... and lastly, the Blue Jays are the ones threatening to have to trade Wells because of his contract demands... this isn't some lame-brain idea proposed by fans.
If the playoffs are just a crapshoot anyway, why on earth do we care if the Astros make the playoffs? By that standard, the '05 Astros season sucked because we finished as a wild card team. Who cares about making the WS - it was just luck, right?
Making the playoffs is an accomplishment, in and of itself. That should NEVER be discounted, whether its by division or wild card. Also, doing well consistently in this era of payroll disparity, big vs. medium vs. small market, and balancing farm system vs. free agents is much more impressive. Doing well in the playoffs is a function of playing well, good fortune, and avoiding the inevitable "cold streaks" that accompany the greatest of baseball teams. Of course, that's still the ultimate goal... but I will stop short of saying "this Tigers and Yankees suck because they didn't do well in the playoffs", just as I will avoid saying "the Cardinals were the best team in baseball last year."
Nobody said that championships don't matter. Nobody said that they would prefer their team finish with the best record than win a championship. You still don't get the point. When comparing franchises, consistent regular season success is a better measure than postseason success, because of the erratic nature of the playoffs. There is too much luck involved. As far as Jeter, no he doesn't elevate his game for the playoffs. All of those "clutch" plays he makes are ones that you remember for being great. What about all of the balls he doesn't get to because of his abysmally poor defensive skills? Nobody said it's all luck, we are saying that there is a large amount of luck. I'm not going to accept a sig bet, because to be honest that's pretty silly. I'll just continue to humiliate you and your juvenile logic.
Taunting? I presented well reasoned logical points. Way to start name calling, really classy. Canadian. It isn't ridiculous. The Blue Jays may not trade Wells before the season starts, but like you said they will entertain offers at the deadline depending on how their season goes. Stop acting like it's out of the realm of possiblity for Vernon Wells to be on the block when he's made it clear he's expecting Beltran money to sign. By your logic, the Marlins are a better team than the Cardinals and the Astros over the last 10 years. Championships are obviously the ultimate goal for a franchise, but consistent regular season success is a better measure to use when comparing franchises. Oh boo hoo with that Houston BBS BS. It's not like we are all raving lunatic homers. We are all presenting logical points.
Man those Toronto teams were pretty nasty back in the day. Just off the top off my head : carter, white, key, guzeman, henderson, molitor, Olerud Hentgen. I'm not buying the those teams just got hot espically in that ERA without the wild card. It was just an hell of accomplishment to just make the playoffs. It still is today but if you didnt win 90 + games back than you weren't going. I'll never discount another teams championship. As a Rocket fan we get that all the time and its just stupid. The Dallas Mav's have been a superior team than us for nearly a decade but we still got 2 rings. And they gotta respect that so I'll respect the Blue Jays. And we still holding on to our rings like the Blue Jay fans are now and they're only a few years apart. I wouldnt trade being an astro fan for anything its been a hell of a ride. But the Blue Jays do have the titles and the cards did win the series this year. I gotta respect that
Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, Larry Walker, Dawson, Raines, Moises Alou, John Wetteland, Vlad Guerrero, Marquis Grissom, Livan Hernandez.. the list could go on. The Expos were the minor league farm system for the rest of the league and its pitiful that ownership just gave that team a complete screwjob from day one. None of those owners cared about winning and the team got screwed because of it. The worst was in 1994 with the lockout. That team was rock solid and their jerk of an owner decides to release pretty much everyone from that team that could've contended for a world series. Oh and MLB really screwed them in 2003 when they refused to allow the team to do september callups when they were in the wild card race. Man this story is too depressing.... Go Expos
Once and for all... people should stop comparing MLB's playoffs with the NBA. Its a really really REALLY bad comparison... the NBA doesn't feature different starting pitchers each and every game that can change any series. The NBA also lets more than half of their teams in the playoffs... making the post-season MORE important, and rendering its regular season the most meaningless of all sports.
I'm not getting into it with you Burznomar, with your little mini Trader_Jorge act. Put your bait back on the shelf. I never said championships are the only thing that matters, just that finishing the season with the hardware is a better accomplishment than finishing with a superior record. Yes, the Blue Jays were better than the Astros last year because of their better record. There is really no other viable criteria with which to compare the two teams. Regarding the Cards, in my mind the fact that they won the World Series trumps everything else, including record, since it is a bigger accomplishment. I guess you aren't going to do the bet, eh? You should have more faith in your team.
