we certainly understand your argument, fat...you're just going to have a hard time convincing most americans that individual liberties can be trounced upon to protect the greater good all the time.
You said you were there when you were three, so is that when you formed your political opinions? I guess it might have seemed like an ok system to a three year old. You got me. My father did. My cousins, uncles, grandparents, aunts, all did. So yeah, I have a pretty good idea what its like. Damn, were you beaten as a child? Callin your old man a sellout is pretty harsh. What are you, anyway? How would you know? Well, generally people don't like to be starving. They don't like to have the crap kicked out of them. They don't like to be imprisoned for their political beliefs or have their government torture them. They don't like to be executed because they are a teacher, or a doctor, or because they think differently than the government. Then they don't like to have their family charged for the bullet that killed them. They don't like to have their babies slaughtered at birth by the government. They don't like to have their temples torn down by the government. You can quote me on that. B-bob, that was damn funny. Uh, no. They are not Chinese. They are Turks. They are nothing like the Han Chinese. They do not consider themselves Chinese. They do not want to be part of China. And of what relevance is your assertion that it is an internal problem. I clearly have proven your preposterous statement that no one has attacked the Han Chinese establishment as FALSE. F-A-L-S-E. Yeah, and both those countries were our allies when we were shipping them arms, as the PRC is now. Although we weren't stupid enough to ship them nuclear technology as the PRC has done. When has the US government overthrown a democratic government lately? Look at the French. They're anti-American and we're not invading France. It is the BEST system there is. Not perfect, but much better than totalitarianism. B-E-T-T-E-R. WRONG AGAIN. Aside from the millions of Chinese that Mao straight out executed, his programs were causing WIDESPREAD FAMINE in China. It was only grain FROM THE WEST, mainly the US, that saved the Chinese. Mao really only cared little Chinese girls. But that's totalitarianism for you. As for Tianamen, the students weren't trying to overthrow the government. They were trying to get the government to liberalise and grant more freedom to the people. But somehow I guess you think the proper answer to peaceful completely non-violent protest is to roll in the tanks. Considering that the order to send in tanks almost split the PLA, and caused the very warlordism you speak about, I find your point ironic. Deng rolled in the tanks because a more democratic China would mean the loss of power for the Communist Party, not because he feared for Chinese stability.
I wonder what would happen if a group of free-willed people willingly voted for communism. Is that new government evil because it is Communist? Or good because it was democratically selected? How did "US to Occupy Iraq and Control Oil Fields" become about communism and China?
Wouldn't it just end up being democratic socialism? There are lots of countries like that. My favourite Mao story: he started a huge campaign to kill sparrows, because he thought they were affecting crops adversely. Everyone killed thousands upon thousands of sparrows. Truckloads. But because there were no sparrows to eat insects, the insects ran riot and ruined the crops.
I feel one problem that faces the US is that it threatens the free will of people. The regime in Egypt is a totalitarian regime that is supported financially and militarily by the US because it made peace with Israel. By the US supporting Mubarak and Sadat before him, we are helping this group to maintain power when the populace wants change. Another ally of ours is Saudi Arabia, which is ruled by a ruthless dictatorship monarchy. The entire government is simply one family. Most Saudi's don't see the American Troops there as guarding them from Saddam or others, but they see those troops as guarding the Ruling elite from the population. Another example is the US backing of the overturn of elections in Algeria. The Algerian PEOPLE freely elected an Islamic government, and the US and the French overturned it and now it is ruled by a Military dictator. How would that make you feel about the US? I love this country. It is the basis for all of us to converse freely and enjoy liberty, but some of our governmental actions are questionable. And as citizens to our Democracy we must ask these questions.
C'mon. That it silly. In each of those cases, were the US to completely severe ties, those regimes would still be in place. Your linkages are spurious at best.
i live in hk is hk part of china?? but u didnt businessman believe in captialism n hate communism becuz of money which i think is wrong so? well i have been to many countries they are always different than what i see from books or tv!! so all the peoples are staving? all the people are imprisoned for their political belief in n korea and iraq? nobody in america is hungry? no body been in prison for different politcal beliefs in america ever??!! all the teachers n doctor are executed too?? who else suppose to pay for the bullets??? who get slaughter their babies at birth by governemnt???all the templers are torn down?? they are consider chinese becuz they live in china , they dont want to be part of china becuz they are part of china now mean its internal problem , it is like native indians are they american or indians? they dunt want to be part of the white people society before but look at what white people did to them!!! chinese are chinese han chinese and all other tribe that live in china are chinese!!! its not like what u want to believe that they are anydifferent more than 3000 dialects but same character same word!!! its not stupid to share anything with allies i said if !!! yes best system to the americans or to your opinion but what i try to say is democracy can go wrong too if the voter are uneducated or bias or many other reasons its not the best system to all cultures . people(voters) who can be evil n vote for an evil leader then ......!!!!! really sorry to say but u are so brainwash to hate communism n maybe chinese in your heart, mao's father was a farmer he grew up in th farm he got power from farmers so if he didnt care about farmer n chinese peoples how did he got all that support !!! mainly the us that saved the chinese , lol again u alway think american are savior to all!!! amercian didnt do **** to help a communism china at all . Mao like all men need girls too!did bill clinton only care about the blowjobs too?? there is millions of peoples , things wil easily go out of control, the whole city stopped , people cant have their normal life anymore when there is millions of angry protestant on the streets. things can go wrong easily just need a few bad guy in the groups, it is not peaceful when the society are not in order , how do u try to control a million out of control crowd other than tanks n soldiers?deng did roll the tank becuz rushing political reform = instability , look at russia !!! so he did it for the good of chinese peoples just look at china today !
Khan, you make a good point about US foreign policy. The ends do not justify the means. But just remember that those countries are the ruthless dictatorships. And just because the Saudi people have a different perspective on what the US is doing over there doesn't mean that they are right. Instead of trying to bash the US and paint it as imperialistic and evil, we should be debating what better actions we should take in the future. Too many on the left truly think the US is the problem, evil, etc. (And too many on the right don't like to critique US actions).
Come on guys....Fat has to argue for the Chinese government, if he doesn't, they will track him down and remove him from his keyboard. DD
Is HK same system as PRC mainland? NO. Has HK been under British rule most of your life? YES. Did PRC guarantee HK would stay the same, NOT LIKE MAINLAND when British gave back control? YES. Rubber and glue. Another contradiction. Below you say Deng is good because 'look at China today.' China today is becoming more capitalist, not less. So is capitalism good or bad? Deng thought is was good, but he was also concerned with ensuring his own power, which he did. One of the reasons he fell out of favor originally was that he was not a good Maoist. Mainland Chinese do not seem to agree with you that capitalism is bad. HK Chinese do not seem to agree with you that capitalism is bad. Maybe you're reading the wrong books? Try one that's not 'little' and 'red.' "Forty years ago China was in the middle of the world's largest famine where some 30 million people starved to death (see Field Exchange 8). A review1 article in the British Medical Journal discusses how this man-made famine was at the time largely covered up within China and that even today China has not undertaken an open, critical examination of this unprecedented tragedy. The review traces the origins of the famine to the leadership's decision to launch the 'Great Leap Forward' whereby economic development was to be promoted through promoting heavy industry. Based on Stalinist ideology tens of millions of rural peasants were ordered to mine local deposits of iron ore and limestone, to cut trees for charcoal and to build simple clay furnaces to smelt metal. Peasants were forced to abandon all private food production. At the same time fabricated reports of record grain harvests were issued to demonstrate the superiority of communal farming. These gross exaggerations were then used to justify the expropriation of higher shares of grain for cities and the establishment of wasteful communal mess halls serving free meals. In reality by the spring of 1959 there was a famine in a third of China's provinces. The famine showed clear marks of 'omission', 'commission' and 'provision'. These three processes recur in all modern man-made famines. The greatest omission was the failure of China's rulers to acknowledge the famine promptly and to secure foreign food aid. The Chinese government took nearly three years to act. Taking away all means of private food production, forcing peasants into mismanaged communes and continuing food exports were the worst acts of commission. Preferential supply of food to cities and to the ruling elite was the deliberate act of provision." Many. There is no mass famine, no. Political dissidents by the millions? No. Cultural Revolution? Ring a bell? I'll just let that speak for itself. Uh, millions of Chinese couples. 'One child policy?' Heard of it? Try Tibet. Ah, you contradict yourself. If white people 'did' something to indians, then how is Han not 'doing' something to Muslims? And this is irrelevant to the point, which is that your claim there is no backlash against Han oppression is WRONG. Who's the gopher's ally? His friends. The harmless squirrel and the friendly rabbit. If all the people are evil then I guess. What's your point? That having dictators who commit genocide, both literal and cultural, are good? That's nuts. Sorry, Mao starved the farmers once he gained control of the country. Mao used the farmers, plain and simple. Dude, you are dillusional. You are defending Mao. That is a joke. Sorry. You are wrong. As stated above, the Great Leap Forward cause mass famine. It only ceased when the PRC sought food from the West to make up shortages. You just don't know you're history. As disgusting as Lewinski was, she wasn't a child. Mao was a sick man. Although I guess you can try to defend child rape and prostitution. Untrue characterization. There were not 'millions in the streets,' and they were not 'angry.' They were peacefully protesting. Nice try. Was there civil war in Russia? Warlordism? Uh, no. But the breakup of the Soviet Union DID scare the CCP. They did NOT want to lose their power. That much is correct.
it become more captialism but its is socilaism the chinese way , the chinese are running a new system. not all the mainland chinese think capitalism is good when the majority of population are still farmers . u are fxxking dumb to think deng reform or did whatevery he did for himself n the power he did it for the good of chinese peoples, the guy was friking 70 years old when hes was in power again he going die soon u think an old man who worked for china all his life not care about the chinese at all but his power!!! some of the example are seeing tv commerical i thought singapore was very clean n people dont litre , but when i got there it different than what i see! reading books n from what i heard canada was a very safe place n peoples are very friendly but not when i was studying there i experience racism , there is more gunfire in 1 year than where i live in 10 years!!! u see whatever u got your information about china its pretty wrong u just proof for me that i am right A review1 article in the british Medical Journal , it was coverd up by the prc how are these british know this??!!! how did they count there is 30 millions peoples, lol!!! how many? do u really care ?! if u do go join the usa army n fight for the world peace !! There is no mass famine, no. but there is still alot of homeless who are hungry!!! all government make mistake at some points even the chinese government admit that it was very wrong , it was the gang of 4 fault. your govenment treat blacks n others like dogs not too long ago??!! different colors people cant sit in the same area in the bus not too long ago!!!??? who pay for the leagal injection n electric chair in america??? the taxpayer , but why others have to responsible for someone's fault!!!??? the victim usually pay for his own bullets!!! anyways the taxpayer are also the families paying indirectly!!! yes , that;s the only way to control population but they dunt kill babies ,couples just lose some welfare if they have more than 1 child!! look at india now without the one child policy what are the temples that are tore down in tibet???!!! why is it acceptable for american to force native indians to not speak their own language , force them live in concetration camp , force to believe your religion , force them to be part of the white society or they will be killed !! should the american return land to the natives now?? its too late when most native dunt even know their language, now china those are not white n indians or black n white problems, they are chinese n part of china for long ago ! my points is america can be as bad as nazi germany !!! becuz most american think like u do that is why they are picking fight everywhere n they think they are right , 50% of american voted for a president that invaded afghanistan , prepare to invade iraq, naming 3 countries with different belief n system axis of evil threating millions of lives in middle east n north korea, building a missile defense system which will sperate the world into 2so many wrong doings the list is so long i cant write them all in here!!! mao didn stave the farmers on purpose , natural diaster , wrong policy n direction n many others reason for the peoples in china didnt eat well in the early days !! plain n simple that u are dillusinal becuz there is billions of people will defend mao that he is great leader he did make mistake like many others did too!! look at those usa president that allow slavery , killings native indians why the american still love those president so much?? i am wrong ?! again first u are saying the american saved the chinese now u are saying west??? like i said american didnt do **** to help a communism china at all!! stop think your government n president are saviour to all!!! there is no proofs that mao had sex with liitle girls excpet a book which his personal doctor wrote said about it but he bribe from the taiwanese n that book was published in taiwan its is questionable if what everything he said was true!!!?? even if he did have sex with little girls its not rape or prostition!! and beside the chinese cultur allow their daughtes to marry even when they 14 or younger in the old days!! were u there to count how manys?? there was at least one million chinese protesting in hongkong to support the students in beijing , are u saying in china there is less than one million on the streets than hong kong is??? again its not peaceful when the society is not in order why u try to twist my points u said deng roll the tanks becuz he fear of the lost of power not for stablility but what i said is that rushing politacl reform= instablity(russia) which proof deng did it for stability and proof that your point is wrong!!! what i am really suggesting u is go to see the real world yourself geting information from the bias media in your countries wont make u understand why are u and other amercians are dislike or hated by half of the world population!!! go see why the peoples in so many countries that dislike american are not all idiots they can think just as good as u do ,they dunt hate american becuz they are jealous of the way american are living ,they have their points too !!!
The totalitarian regime of Clutch! Doh! fatfatcow, A couple of points: 1. Yes, all governments make mistakes. The US pursued what today would be considered genocidal, at different times both cultural and literal, policies against many minorities, including indians (literal) and blacks (cultural). Likewise so did the regime of Mao. 2. Despite that, and despite our different outlooks on philosphical questions (Western individual rights vs Eastern group rights), I have no problem championing individual rights. Any more than I champion capitalism over communism. You can say the worldviews are different, and that is true. But that does not make them equal if they are not. If you have valid reasons why communism is better than capitalism than you are welcome to champion communism, and we can have a dialogue to enlighten each other, and those in the forum can decide who is making the better points and who is not. If you have valid reasons why the PRC should persecute outlying 'provinces' to 'maintain stability' then do so. I will certainly argue the opposite. 3. If you want to say totalitarianism is superior to democracy, I will disagree, and I think you will look foolish. But that is ok. 4. Americans are not engaged in different parts of the world in a mission for hegemonic conquest. If you disagree, that is ok. I will be more than happy to show how you are incorrect. The American people care for other peoples. We also care for our own interest, and sometimes we make mistakes. But we would not be alone in that, would we? We do have good intentions, and we sacrifice not only material but the blood of our sons for what we feel is right. Is that bad? You can say so, but do not pretend we are Romans out to own the world, we are not. 5. Every peoples wants to be 'at least' as powerful and legitimate and engaged as every other. At some level you must admit that when the US acts because they are the most 'capable', that in itself engenders resentment. While some of the resentment may come from anger or disagreement with ACTUAL US action, much comes from the fact that the US is asked to act in the first place, rather than the PRC, or GB, or Russia or whoever. ON China: 6. Deng lived into his 90s, not his 70s. Pretty much the dude was a player, and he undertook many actions to consolidate his support. Remember, he had already been distanced from power earlier in his career because he wanted to liberalize to quickly, and the hardliners removed him. He was not going to have that happen again in '89. His primary justification in the crackdown was to appease hardliners and consolidate his own power, NOT the advancement of liberalization. In the end he may have felt it a necessary evil to continue the general path of liberalization long term, but it is unrealistic to say his first concern was not his own power. 7. Re: TV & books. I have not been bound to some suburb in the States. I have travelled the world. I have much that comes from people who have experienced communism and other things first hand. Do not trivialize my opinions because you think I have only learned about China from CNN. That is not the case. 8. Re: The Great Leap Forward. I provide ONE site. You've provided none. It is simply irresponsible and incorrect for you to suggest that there was NOT a famine in the PRC as a result, or the famine was not averted by food from the West. That simply is not true. Please document something denying the food aid and then we can talk. I will say that it is possible that Mao merely made mistakes, rather than particularly subjected the farmers to famine, although the preponderence of evidence suggests he specifically DID screw the farmers over in fodd distribution, and that he KNEW the programs were NOT working and just lied about it to save face. 9. Tianamen: if you are correct, and there were one million protesting in Hong Kong, then; what makes you think the students had no support (oops), and why didn't Hong Kong disintegrate into anarchy and chaos if there were so many protesters since you say it only takes one or two bad people to destroy 'order'? I believe your position is untenable. 10. Finally, as per why many do not like US foreign policy: Some are idiots. Some are wrong. Those that think totalitarian governments (whether they be theocratic Muslims, a monarchy, communists, or fascist dictators) are wrong. THE most superior government is one in which one person or one group cannot rule with an iron fist and dictate to the people what is to be or not. The US in THIS CURRENT world does not overthrow democracies. Those it has singled out like Cuba, N Korea, Iraq are examples of the former, and are simply bad forms of government. If that is the essence of your disagreement then say so and we can go forward productivly. You will lose. It simply is not realistic to say Stalin, and Hitler, and Saddam, and Kim Il Jung, and Mao, and Castro are better than a democratic leader. Sorry.
Deng pass all his power to jiang after 89 except kept the miltary for a while so he didnt roll the tank for himself like u think he did. many chinese even in hk changed their mind n beleive he did it fo stability. Tianamen , did u know what happaned in honkong after one million protestant were in the streets , there was robberies in many places becuz alot of police force were concetrated to control the crowd , the plan was everybody in hongkong not to work for one day to go on street to show support to the students but it was cancelled becuz of what happaned n fear things will go worse, as civilize as hongkong was the government fear it would go out of control ,and some crime happaned , now u tell me in mainland things will not get worse when every major cities stopped working n million get on the streets without a goal!?? my believe is always this i never think totalitarian governments are better than american government but my point is even those govenment are bad dont give usa the right to overthrown it or accuse it is bad or evil just becuz it is different beliefs form the american!! i always think the american feel their standards is the world standard their belief is the only true and then force others countries or people to their believe. just like what happan to the native indians , the white american force them to give up their religion becuz the white american think everythings different from their belief is wrong . 50% of american voted for bush , who said that he dunt see china as friend but a competitor, why? becuz china is a different system from the u.s n the american think it is wrong n evil! how do u expect the chinese to view the american and bush? president jiang always say he want to be friend with usa .
ummmm...i've heard american presidents (bush included) speak of china as an ally...we've certainly requested their support in the war on terrorism and in dealing with n. korea. we certainly trade pretty openly with china. in return, we get to hear chinese military leaders tell us about delivering nukes to los angeles. so don't pont at american leaders and tell us how mean and evil they are. white america doesn't share as many beliefs as you might think...sit on this board long enough and you'll hear white americans disagree on a wide array of topics. we don't have much of a concerted effort to change your beliefs...americans as a whole usually favor democracy to tyranny, though. wanna put china's human rights record up against the united states? are you sure you really want to go down that road? by the way...we're usually asked in for assistance by the oppressed. and why in the world do you think illegitimate governments (ones that don't exist with the consent of the people) are worth defending? my favorite argument you've made so far is, "how do you know?? you've never been here." but you make a thousand assertions about the united states...have you ever been here?
yes i have been to the state many time , one things i never saw from tv until i went to some cities were that there are so many crackheads!
