My favorite soccer team, Bayern Munich, is pledging about € 500,000 (collected from team players, the manager, etc.) to aid the Tsunami victims. I wonder if the Rockets would ever consider anything like this?
Hayes, perhaps you miss Cohen's point. Bush could, and should have, held a news conference, or at least made a public statement, expressing our dismay at the disaster, and our intent to provide aid to the limit of our ability. By waiting, he missed a chance to help our image in the rest of the world. Someone like Clinton or Reagan, natural politicians, would have seen this chance to burnish our tattered image around the world. (and it is tattered, whether some folks here believe it or not, or care... and I'm not including you) Things like that are important, and Bush waited instead. I'm not saying he waited before he acted, how would I know? We are certainly doing the right things now, with our use of the Navy and Marines being exactly the sort of response I was hoping for. Our power is used for good, without any arguments about whether it is really for good, or for other reasons. (see Iraq) That sort of aid is priceless to those who need it. It also is an expression of just how powerful we are. I'm glad to see us use it this way. Keep D&D Civil!!
If you look at the last sentence of my post, this is exactly what I said, Deckard. Maybe. In a alternate world where Bush announces immediately our dismay I doubt those out there that deride the US would think 'oh my, they aren't (insert pejorative here) after all!' More likely it wouldn't ever be noticed. If that were true then all the disaster relief we've been giving would have had some measurable effect, and it doesn't seem to have done so. They would have seen this as an opportunity. Whether that's good or bad I don't know.
Perhaps where we disagree is that you were talking about the relief effort. I was talking about a missed opportunity by Bush in regards to our foreign policy. I think we are now doing exactly what we should be doing providing relief. The "missed opportunity" is not surprising. This President almost relishes them. Keep D&D Civil!!
Bottom Line is that no matter what the USA or GWB does, there are going to be many many people in other countries and even people in our own country like Cohen and glynch that are going to criticize over and over like a broken record. It's never going to be enough, so I think I'll just hit the mute button. Why O Why do I even look in the D&D.
Perhaps because you're interested in opinions other than your own? Perhaps because it can be entertaining at times? And perhaps because you're working on that problem you have with lumping people together, when it comes to their views? Keep D&D Civil!!
Here's some commentary on the Canadian response: from http://www.snappingturtle.net/flit/archives/2005_01_02.html#005094 January 02, 2005 Flightless DART There's little to say about the tragedy of Canada's response to the tsunami tragedy that hasn't already been said. A lot of excuses have been bandied about for why Canadian soldiers weren't sent, when Australia, Taiwan, Israel, and other countries despatched forces early, and the American military launched its largest operation in the area since Vietnam to try to save lives. In the end, though, the answer's pretty simple: 600 tonnes. That's the amount of airlift required to move the DART (Disaster Assistance Response Team). Since Canada only has the 4 CC-150 Polaris (modified Airbuses) for strategic airlift, with a cargo capacity of 13 tonnes each, rapid deployment of DART anywhere outside the effective ferry range of our 30-odd additional short-range Herc transports (ie, off this continent) was a mathematical impossibility, without civilian airlift... and civilian airlift is in pretty short supply at the moment. Whether to Bosnia or Afghanistan, the Canadian military flies overseas by chartered air now. Ottawa's political leaders would have had to move very fast to reserve some of the available transports (mostly Russian-made) before they were snapped up by other governments and NGOs. They didn't. (Canada, along with the other smaller NATO countries, tends to use Russian air carrier Volga Dnepr, which has refused to sign any agreement that "reserves" any of its airfleet to a given government in advance for these kinds of situations. Australia's military, by contrast, uses domestic air carrier Adagold, flying the same Russian aircraft, but with their own country's military as a "preferred customer.") The lack of airlift was a conscious decision, based on the little remarked-upon shift in the tail-end Chretien period, during John McCallum's time as defence minister. His predecessor Art Eggleton, seemingly influenced by the Liberal interventionist wing (Richard Gwyn, Janice Steyn, Lloyd Axworthy et al), had attempted to reposition Canada as a "first-in, first-out" military, moving quickly to crisis areas with a rapid deployment force, but shunning long-term commitments anywhere. McCallum rightly recognized that the Forces a) didn't have the people; b) didn't have the money, and c) would not have the public support for the inevitable Canadian casualties when the paratroopers dropped into Kigali, or what have you. Fully supported by the Prime Minister, he publicly switched the military's focus to a "last-in," stabilization-oriented force (or, admitted that was what we really had, if you prefer to think of it that way)... low-intensity conflict only, shipped by chartered air into countries with a sufficiently-stable ground picture that significant casualties were highly unlikely. Starting with the McCallum years, we officially became "hotspot" averse. (Regarding strategic airlift, his now famous line was "No one has yet been able to give me a single instance where the absence of this capability stopped us or significantly delayed us moving people or equipment from point A to point B." Well, we've got a single instance now.) Unfortunately, as was commented on at the time, that mentality makes it now effectively impossible to deploy in natural disaster scenarios, as well. DART, an Eggleton "first-in" project, has atrophied to the point where it proved undeployable even to Haiti during the hurricanes last year. If all this makes you wonder how effective the CF might be if that earthquake had been off of Vancouver Island, instead of Aceh, well, you probably should wonder. It's certainly not encouraging. Hopefully the Americans will have an aircraft carrier free then, too. (Current defence minister Bill Graham and prime minister Paul Martin mouthed some support for the UN/ICISS "reponsibility to protect" concept through 2004 (aka the "peacekeeping brigade"), although there has been no sign to date of any actual resource allocations to meet that commission's demand for "an effective expeditionary force, capable of engaging in low- to medium-intensity conflict, anywhere in the world." If the pendulum is switching back to a "first-in" concept, it's doing so very slowly, and the military recruiting and training crisis means actually meeting that goal would be something like a decade away at this point.) "The world needs more Canada," Bono said. Well, it's unlikely at the moment to get it, at least not in the uniformed variety. PS: The Canadian side of the tragedy is a classic example of political power abhorring a vacuum, by the way. With the federal government effectively paralyzed by vacation, the Toronto chattering elites have been looking to the city's mayor to have his "Rudy Giuliani moment" and sent planeloads of relief with a Toronto sticker on the side of the plane overseas. Mayor David Miller, by all accounts a sensible man, has avoided the challenge to date... one of his successors likely won't the next time, and the abrogation of federal powers by the provinces and municipalities will continue its Canadian snowball. Posted by BruceR at 03:33 PM
Bush ordered those copters over there the day after the tsunami. And it wasn't just helecopters, it was an entire carrier group. It just took a while for them to get there - they don't have teleportation just yet, you know. The Tsunami happened on the 26th. It was announced that the Carrier Abraham Lincoln was ordered to the area on the 28th (and it's not unreasonable to assume that it was actually ordered there the day before on the 27th. That's two days after the event (and remember the scope of the event was not known after only two days). I would suggest that counts as "the first few days after the Tsunammi". Cohen, you seem to want the US to use this disaster as an opportunity for some self-promotion. Isn't that a little sick? Shouldn't all the focus be on the victims and not on what you perceive as a missed opportunity for the US to gain some PR points? After all you said that the US "bungled" the opportunity and then gave the timing of the President's press conference as an example of why it was "bungled". Clearly, according to this timeline, he acted with aid and military support before he held the conference but you seem obsessed with the timing of the conference. Weird.
<a HREF="http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/04/international/worldspecial4/04arab.html?ei=5006&en=5ee3e8783fb13da3&ex=1105419600&partner=ALTAVISTA1&pagewanted=print&position=">Gulf Arabs Wonder: Are They Being Stingy With Aid?</a>
Originally posted by basso the tsunami was the 26th. the navy has been in the area since saturday, january 1, just 5 days later. given that they sailed from diego garcia, 2000 miles away, i'd say they were dispatched pretty damned quickly. but perhaps W was too busy to issue a press release trumpeting his efforts... There are indications that they arrived sometime late on the 31st, not the 1st. And the ALCSG had been vacationing in Hong Kong when the tsunami hit, and was 'diverted' to the area. Difficult to tell from reports whether they were already at sea or not when diverted, but they can make it to Thailand/Sumatra in 2.5 days from Hong Kong there if they're in a big hurry. So they were dispatched either very late on the 28th or early on the 29th. Two and a half to three days after the devestation, and after criticism had already begun over the inital $12 million pledge. And FWIW, the 1st is 6 days after the 26th, not 5. your laughable criticism that those of us who support bush are blind to his shortcomings is all the more ironic/moronic when you and glynch attempt to create a sense of outrage over bull**** like this. Name 1 shortcoming of Bush that you vere mentioned. Just 1 would be helpful. I've argued his strengths before; let's see how unbiased you are.
Originally posted by HayesStreet If we hate 'them' or think they are irrelevant then why would we feel shame? Pardon? Are you asking me to defend the logic/illogic of what other people feel? My take: He did apparently immediately dispatch teams to assess the scope of the problem and redirect a naval task force to assist. Intially announcing $35 in aid and then bumping it doesn't seem unsound since the first news did not correctly assess the damage, ie first reports were of 10,000 dead - then 30,000 - now well over 100,000. The development aid thread is just a straw man for this particular incident. We do quite a lot with disaster aid. First, the aid started at $12 million, not $35 million. As I've stated, I've alway known that we'd ultimately get to the right amount, that we're not 'stingy'. But could other people around the world think that was a stingy first step? Absolutely. Should he have expressed support? Yes. It wouldn't have hurt and wouldn't have helped, but its what he is supposed to do. It would have helped our counrty's image when the President clearly and timely communicates what our country is all about; to help overcome the bad image many have of us. That we were concerned enough for our President to take a break from his holiday to speak to our concern about the people in the region.
Originally posted by 111chase111 Bush ordered those copters over there the day after the tsunami. And it wasn't just helecopters, it was an entire carrier group. It just took a while for them to get there - they don't have teleportation just yet, you know. The Tsunami happened on the 26th. It was announced that the Carrier Abraham Lincoln was ordered to the area on the 28th (and it's not unreasonable to assume that it was actually ordered there the day before on the 27th. That's two days after the event (and remember the scope of the event was not known after only two days). I would suggest that counts as "the first few days after the Tsunammi". The timing of the conference is of utmost importance. We can do whatever we want behind the scenes, but when all the world sees is a tiny pledge and hears nothing else but silence from our leaders, we perpetuate the view that many have of us: greedy, self-absorbed, uncaring. Sorry, but that's what we have to contend with, whether true or not. Cohen, you seem to want the US to use this disaster as an opportunity for some self-promotion. Isn't that a little sick? Shouldn't all the focus be on the victims and not on what you perceive as a missed opportunity for the US to gain some PR points? After all you said that the US "bungled" the opportunity and then gave the timing of the President's press conference as an example of why it was "bungled". Clearly, according to this timeline, he acted with aid and military support before he held the conference but you seem obsessed with the timing of the conference. Weird. What type of self-promotion are you taking about? WTH is that supposed to mean? Am I going to get a job because of this thread? You can still help people and build goodwill thrugh effective PR. Are you arguing that they're mutually exclusive? Please explain to me how the victims are hurting because of crticism over Bush's response. It is much more likely that the fire lit under his ass is going to mean MORE assistance for the victims than those of you who want to sit on your thumbs. Ya'll act like I somehow made this topic up. DO YOU READ ANYTHING AT ALL? It's all about perception, and many perceived that Bush screwed up. Therefore, he did.
glynch and my opinions differ on this subject. I did not criticize the USA, and I do not always criticze what Bush does. Apparently, another idiot who cannot read.
Wow, man. You're getting too into this. You, MadMax and Major (when he used to post) are among the calmest and most rational posters in this bitter forum. If people can't understand that you're criticizing the president for not speaking out early enough, why bother to argue with them? If people can't read the words that are typed, no amount of arguing is going to make them understand. And for the record, I agree with you. By Monday, it was clear that this was a horrible disaster to me (I was with family all X-mas wkend and had no interest in watching television) and was certainly worthy of a verbal response from the prez. It took too long for him to give one, and that's a shame. I'm not sure if the rest of the world noticed, but I did and it bothered me. I do however think he and the rest of the country have done a great job since then. Hopefully it will make a difference in these poor peoples' lives. I hope everyone that is proclaiming the generosity of the USA with words is also doing so with their wallet.
There is no excuse for this type of behavior. Even though we don't agree on this, Cohen, I have always respected you. You are better than this or do you not care what I say because I am an idiot that disagrees with you??
